Archive through October 06, 2013
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through October 06, 2013
now, what's entertaining is 310.11. if before the first round of combat is resoved, we get an honor duel's small combat, doesn't all the rest of the fleet engagement have to be done via small combat?
Ack, no, it means that the honor duel is done before the fleet engagement but any retreats are from THAT battleforce (528.431)...
Note, I agree with Richard's interpretation but that it is also ambiguous since the penal rules pre-date the new Small Scale Combat rules.
On the recent ruling about supply in the Wyn cluster hex.
The ruling seems wrong to me. As I have said in the past according to the supply rules a supply route does not enter the hex a ship is actually in.
For example assume a standard general war setup on turn 1 with the only exception that both a Kzinti and Lyran ship start in hex 804 (the Wyn Cluster).
The Kzinti ship is in supply because it can trace supply to the BATS in 803. If we for a moment assume all the Kzinto border BATS are gone (just to have a bit more robust supply route example) then the Kzinti ship traces supply to the count's SB via the route
902-903-803 (there are other routes in addition to this one legal)
I would point out again that the supply rules do not require the supply route to INCLUDE the hex the unit is in but it must include the hex the supply source is in.
The Lyran unit would be in supply for similar reasons (but of course tracing to a Lyran source of supply).
If a Klingon unit began turn 1 in the Wyn cluster it would NOT be in supply as neutral hexes block any conceivable supply route, but note 804 is not one of the neutral hexes that block supply for the Klingons but rather the regular NZ hexes.
Mike, I fail to see your point. You say the following:
Quote:...according to the supply rules a supply route does not enter the hex a ship is actually in.
OK so if that is the case (and it is per 411.1) then an empire only needs to get supply to an adjacent hex to the WYN, since the supply route never would actually enter the WYN hex, and therefore the neutral status of the Cluster would have no effect on supply status. If supply cannot be traced to an adjacent hex to the Cluster, then it is exactly the same as if you could trace supply into the Cluster.
I'm guessing your issue with the ruling is that it can allow an out of supply ship one extra hex of movement, since it's first pulse of movement would be in-supply movement. Then the remaining 5 would become 2.5, which would round up to 3 per 410.31 if there was no supply path in any of the adjacent hexes.
So I suppose there really is no reason for the supply in the Cluster as it will not change the supply status in the adjacent hexes to the Cluster. It can just give an extra movement point to a ship that will be out of supply when leaving the Cluster.
Rob,
I would say at its base level that my problem with the ruling is simply that it is not needed. The entire issue is just a misunderstanding of the supply rules as they are written. So any ruling just complicates something that needs no additional complication.
I would also point out that as different from many other games there is no notion of a hex being in supply a unit is in supply if it can trace a supply route to a supply source (and some exception such as Hydran Special tug and starting on a base/planet). So its not a matter of getting supply to a hex adjacent but rather can you find a hex adjacent to 804 that is legal for a supply route. I know it sounds like utter semantics but it really isn't.
My secondary objection beyond the fact that I believe no ruling is neccessary (instead just a clarification on how supply works as written) is that this adds another one off procedure for supply that is completly out of sync with the rest of the supply rules. When you check supply and suffer the effects of being OOS is very well defined in the rules and SOP. This ruling adds an additional check at a point where it makes little sense to do so, and especially given that I do not believe anything needs to be done at all.
I admit I had never thought about your point of the extra hex of movement, that is an additional point of oddness about this ruling.
Rob, it wouldn't work out that way (getting 2.5 hexes of movement), if a unit is OOS at the beginning of movement then it only has three hexes of movement (the same if it was seven hexes from a supply point)...
Another possible solution to the WYN supply situation would be to allow an empire to use their WYNcovia account, or Orion Smuggling to provide EPs to the WYN in order to allow the WYN to supply "transport" units inside the WYN Star Cluster as if they were units in a partial supply grid.
I await your thoughts on this matter, as this obviously would be a rule change, rather than an interpretation.
Stewart,
Sure it would. By the ruling the first hex the ship moves is "in-supply". Then once it leaves the Cluster, if it is no longer "in-supply" we have to calculate how much movement it has left. A normal ship would have 5 pulses left. Dividing that by 2 would be 2.5, which per the rule would round up to 3.
So in this odd case, and "in-supply then out of supply" ship would get 4 hexes of movement instead of 3.
Michael,
I think that is doable right now, you'd just have to pay double to cover the smuggling surcharge. Maybe no though. I've always thought the ship in the Cluster should be able to buy supply for the turn. Clearly the hex is full of supply nodes 
Unless ADB says otherwise, the WYN Trade/Supply ruling is good enough for now. We will review this issue again when we update PO. We may even address this specifically in the F&E module CivilWars if that comes out before the PO update.
My take: The WYN are happy to trade with quid-pro-quo benefit of suppling fuel for their trade partners who do so. However, they give you enough fuel to leave the cluster as they will not take responsibility for your fuel status outside of the cluster; the WYN wants to remain "fuel status neutral".
I also don't want to add to more record keeping or add a new "WYN Fuel Funding" line on the econ sheet.
Chuck,
I would like to appeal this to SVC please. I honestly think NO ruling at all is needed. Currently by the rules ships are in supply when they are in the cluster and the fact that 804 is a neutral hex NEVER enters into the process of deciding if you are or are not in supply.
Should I provide you more detailed arguments and rules cites or is this sufficient for appeal?
Thanks
While you can always make an appeal it is not needed, because the cluster barrier itself blocks supply into and out of the cluster hex and will most likely result in ADB granting an exception in this case since the cluster hex is not the same as other neutral hexes (which seem to be the basis of your argument). Rules for supply into and out of the cluster were not required in F&E because we did not had a need to define it. When we do CivilWars we will have to do it then.
Isn't the WYN cluster itself only 50 parsecs in diameter? So how would it block supply?
Unless ADB says otherwise, foreign units INSIDE the cluster cannot draw supply THROUGH the cluster barrier --and-- WYN units OUTSIDE of the barrier cannot draw supply THROUGH the cluster barrier. The WYNs currently (and abstractly) provide a limited form of movement supply to facilitate trade. Please try not to read more into this.
Coming abit late to the discussion on Wyn supply.
We need to be careful to not inadvertantly create situations, which have game changing effects - namely the Hydran Expedition.
If I could move a Hydran Tug (or LLT or Mini-Tug) with a Diplomat into the Hydran cluster on turn X, on the Coalition turn X+1, the ship would be safe from attack - and if on X+1, the Hydran ship could move out - potentially moving 6 hexes, other than raiding/E&S mission on the Tug - you probably could get the Tug into Federation space on Turn 6.
Example
Turn 3 - move Tug+ADM (and 0.1 Ep's) up the Klingion/Lyran NZ - with a small covering force
Turn 4 - move the Tug into the Wyn (depositing the 0.1 Ep) (unless Coalition block all the routes, which may or may not be realistic)
Turn 5 - move 6 hexes into Kzinti space (and possible retrograding offmap).
turn 6 - move into Federation space
(Ep's are needed, to stop the ship from being interned!)
My 2p would be to just say, the Wyn allow supplies for trade ships to enter the cluster - otherwise, the ship is out of supply.
I am unaware of any Hydran cluster. Perhaps you mean WYN cluster?
This isn't anything that needs looking at.
In any case a Hydran supply tug cannot do this as it cannot adopt any other mission (such as moving economic points).
Only ships carrying EPs can enter the WYN star cluster, so any such Hydran ship would not be in supply by the Kzinti (can't be adopted as homeless by the Kzinti as if in the WYN cluster it can't be supplied from an outside source) and would not be able to move more than four hexes out of the cluster.
It would be unable to retrograde off-map as it's not in supply at the moment of combat or afterwards.
If the Hydran player somehow makes all of this work, I chalk it down to coalition error, not broken rules.
Richard - Got "Hydran" in the wrong place - should say Hydran Diplomat.
Not sure where you got the Hydran Supply tug from? - I mentioned the ship has to carry Ep's to be allowed into the Wyn Cluster - and so has to be a Tug/LTT/FTT - which doesn't stop it carrying the Hydran Diplomat.
As with anything - what worries me if a rule modifies the normal supply rules - it might allow that key ship to get through - even if it just doubles the chance of the Hydran Expedition succeeding - that is a massive change to the game.
Let's get it back to what you said:
"If I could move a Hydran Tug (or LLT or Mini-Tug) with a Diplomat into the Hydran cluster on turn X, on the Coalition turn X+1, the ship would be safe from attack - and if on X+1, the Hydran ship could move out - potentially moving 6 hexes, other than raiding/E&S mission on the Tug - you probably could get the Tug into Federation space on Turn 6. "
All of this is as possible before this ruling on WYN supply as it was beforehand - WYN supply doesn't affect your above example at all.
"Example
Turn 3 - move Tug+ADM (and 0.1 Ep's) up the Klingion/Lyran NZ - with a small covering force
Turn 4 - move the Tug into the Wyn (depositing the 0.1 Ep) (unless Coalition block all the routes, which may or may not be realistic)
Turn 5 - move 6 hexes into Kzinti space (and possible retrograding offmap).
turn 6 - move into Federation space "
None of this was different either before or after the ruling. This example is also flawed. The sticky part is turn 5 moving 6 hexes into Kzinti space. In your example you have a long tug in the WYN star cluster. It is pretty much impossible for the Hydrans to provide supply for it when it moves out of the WYN star cluster on turn 5, so it will be unable to move six hexes (and will also be unable to retrograde after combat). It will at best be in western Kzinti space beginning on turn 6, with zero chance of reaching the Federation before the end of that turn.
Chuck,
Okay I see what your saying now. The Cluster is a special thing with special rules. Two things:
1. Shouldn't special rules for them wait till Civwar or a PO(I think PO) update to 2k10 standards?
2. If you do decide to make these special considerations for the Cluster right now, please release something that states exactly that. Namely that the cluster is a special case and this ruling about supply in the cluster is not about requiring supply inside a units hex at all but rather a clarification for the special status of hex 804.
Peter Bakija asks:
Question: Auto Kill vs Cloaked Fleet
A cloaked Romulan fleet uses their cloak to avoid the approach battle when attacking a planet. In the first round of the battle, their Fed opponents have a compot of 100+, BIR is 5+, and the Feds roll a 6.
Do the Romulans take a forced autokill?
(302.617) "1. A declined approach battle counts as a round of combat."
(306.3) "If used to avoid an approach battle, simply skip sub step 2A..."
Some relevant information about this situation.
A cloaked fleet that avoids an approach battle does not offer an approach battle, so it cannot be declined.
The entire step involving approach battles is skipped.
Off hand, no auto-kill (first combst round of the battle hex)...
Stew, I disagree. The cloaked fleet uses their tactical advantage to avoid the approach battle in the first place. Thus the result is the same as a declined approach battle and therefore is counted as the first round.
I disagree, in my opinion step 2A has to occur for it to be counted as a battle round. If it doesn't, there's no battle round that didn't happen, you go directly to the first battle round.
I think Richard's argument is sound. But it is ambiguous enough that it is worth an official answer.
I agree that Peter's agreement that my argument is sound but is worth an official answer is sound.