...did someone say that escorts that are escorting auxiliaries in slow unit retreat lose their compot? If they did make that statement can someone cite the source of that statement?

Thanks.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 01:04 pm: Edit

(521.372A) These escorting ships (521.374) must be of the same race as the commando ship. They lose all offensive combat potential and special abilities (e.g., stasis, mauler, EW) for that battle round. [The ground combat ship retains its offensive potential.]

(521.374) The following ships cannot be escorts: groups or any part of a group, flagships, free scouts, crippled ships, ships using the formation bonus, ships escorting other ships or escorted by other ships, ships supporting the Battle Force but not included in it. Ship equivalents of fighters and PFs CAN be escorts for ground combat ships.

Are the rules regarding G-ships and SAFs losing all of their compot.

(515.34) STANDARD WARSHIPS not otherwise excluded may be used as “ad hoc” escorts, but their offensive value is reduced to one-half of the printed factor (round fractions down) or by three, whichever is a greater reduction (e.g., a Kzinti FF would become a 1-4). Their attack strength cannot be reduced to a point less than zero. Their defense strength is not changed.

The above are the most relevant rules to conversation I can find. However, a SAF would be considered to be a convoy unless actually assaulting a base or planet and as such the normal rules for escorting a convoy would apply under (515.43).

I don't see any thing under the (515.0) rules that would support escorts losing all of their compot in the slow unit retreat battle.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 11:08 pm: Edit

No, I think escorts for AUXes don't lose compot - other than ad hoc escorts normally.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 05:23 am: Edit

MEMO FOR RECORD

All SAFs and Convoys (and convoy-like unit) are always present in slow retreat. If CR limitations do not allow slow unit escorts above the CR to be present then any excess slow unit escorts cannot contribute their OFFENSIVE COMPOT and the escort group can currently be attacked by directed damage at 2:1 with those escorts normally. However, excess escorts not on the line CANNOT voluntarily take damage.

F&E Staff: Please make sure we address this issue in the new unified auxiliary rule.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 08:02 am: Edit

Chuck,

Would it not make more sense to force those groups to break up instead? If it was pursuit and you had non-crippled escorts in excess of the command rating of the flagship a player is forced to ditch the extra escorts. This should work the same in my opinion.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 08:48 am: Edit

I have to say I think Rob is on the money here. If we followed the same escort protocals we use in pursuit it would both be unifying and make more sense. Perhaps there is a good reason for having different ways to handle escorts in the two situations but there is great benefit from not branching the rules if you don't really gain much from it.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 09:14 am: Edit

I think that could cause a lot of unescorted carriers in slow unit pursuit, which would have catastrophic results.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 09:32 am: Edit

Agreed.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 09:46 am: Edit

Yes, but you can't force the retreating player to drop escorts for slow units unless the command rating is the only issue.

Unlike the pursuit battle where the retreating player can only have 3 non-crippled units unless commands slots are available, the slow unit retreat does not put a limit on non-crippled units except for the flagship command rating.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 10:26 am: Edit

Richard, remember that only one of those slow units can be directed. So while you may loose one unescorted Aux CV, that should be it if the rest are escorted.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 11:59 am: Edit

If the opponent does 30+ points of damage, I think you are going to see my point on this.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Heh. All I know is that the rules didn't work the way I thought. As it stands, bagging slow units in slow pursuit is tough as long as some of those slow units are escortable. Without the escorts they *die* like dogs. Of course, now that FEDS has clarified that the AUXes and escorts not officially on the line can't voluntarily take damage, the possibility of annihilation (even with escorts) is still real.

I look forward to the new revisions. Hopefully they'll be clear this time.

FEDS: To be clear, I said: "excess ESCORTS not on the line CANNOT voluntarily take damage."

Units required to be on the line (Convoys, SAFs, LTFS) can still take voluntary damage but their escorts cannot. Chalk-it-up to the fact that their escorts are not in the command network cannot adequately protect these units during slow pursuit.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Richard,

If I have a 2xLAV and 3xSAV I can do the following:

2x(LAV-Heavy Escort-Light escort)
3xSAV

We'll assume I have 18 fighters exactly.

So a line of 3LAV (flag), 3LAV, and 3xSAV can absorb 18 (fighters)+24(escorts assuming a 7 and 5 point escort)+14 (crippling every Aux CV) for 56 damage before having to self kill a single thing.

So no I'd not be scared of 30+ damage, more like 50+ damage.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 02:22 pm: Edit

My point was, Rob, is that I think those escorts should be allowed.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 02:27 pm: Edit

And by the ruling they are. Thought the point was Aux CVs would die horribly if the escorts were not all present, and I think I just showed that is not the case.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Rob, I think there's a good probability that it *is* the case. If the attacker brings enough toys to the party, it's quite possible to put up a slow pursuit line of 150 compot or more. Since the attacker gets to pick both BIRs, the attacker is *likely* to score around 60 damage - and it could be 75+. That's when the slow pursuit line gets annihilated.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Don't forget that those escorts could allow for additional ships in the pursuer battleline (up to the CR + CP)...(302.742B)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Memo added to Warbook/FO/500 under (543.32x)

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Ted, by the time you can get 150 Compot lines I think the last thing you worry about is this.

60 to 70 damage just isn't reasonable. On average that super line can do like 52. A 120 point line is a whole lot more realistic averaging around 42.

And note I got that much damage absorption with just 4 escorts. So assuming a pursuit as well that battle line fighting the slows will be short by 2 ships.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:27 am: Edit

Rob, Joe Stevenson just did it to me on turn C5. It's a capital assault with a command point. You now have about 13 DN/BC quality ships. That's about 140 right there, then add 12 more for DB. You're looking at somewhere about 150-160 compot, no problem - and 168 is not out of the question if they're all DNs. There's a good 50% chance you will do 37.5%, or 56 damage with a 150 compot line. The odds of getting to 40% is not bad, and that is the 60 damage I quoted. On the extreme end you could face a withering 80 damage, but that takes a mighty force and a lot of luck. But, yeah, 60 damage is entirely reasonable.

Your slow pursuit line will have 7 ships, tops. Assuming you have heavy AUX or SAFs on the line you'll have to have heavy escorts to survive that.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 09:46 am: Edit

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Quote:

Your slow pursuit line will have 7 ships, tops. Assuming you have heavy AUX or SAFs on the line you'll have to have heavy escorts to survive that.

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By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:31 am: Edit

rob

the escorts appear in the battle line without the SAVs? if theyre not escorting, they're not slow units. i also have reservations about your claiming 10 EW from the aux scouts and drone ships that are not on the line.

by what rule or ruling are auxes not present in the battle line either allowed or required to take damage?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:46 am: Edit

FEDS (with a raised eyebrow) is interested in seeing that ruling too...

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 02:08 pm: Edit

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Quote:

FEDS: To be clear, I said: "excess ESCORTS not on the line CANNOT voluntarily take damage."

Units required to be on the line (Convoys, SAFs, LTFS) can still take voluntary damage but their escorts cannot. Chalk-it-up to the fact that their escorts are not in the command network cannot adequately protect these units during slow pursuit.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 05:45 pm: Edit

That is because SAFs, Convoys and LTFs are REQUIRED to be on the line by RULE; I did not say auxiliaries. You need to read-up on these rules. An auxiliary (fighting) unit is an LAx, SAx, JAx, HAx, FTL, FTS, or ASC.