Chuck, isn't it the case that during slow pursuit all slow units are required to be on the line also?

If that is not the case then a single SAV escorted can cover the retreat of a whole bunch of slow units.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 06:19 pm: Edit

So besides the flagship and those ships/units in its CR plus any COMPOT convoys (MilCons) contribute COMPOT for the pursued.

Any escorts used may add ships to the pursuing force (302.742B) though these are optional.

All slow units are part of the pursued force (for directed damage).

Anything missing from this summary?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 06:26 pm: Edit

I think directed damage is treated as one eligible target only? (ie single ship or an entire group).

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 05:50 am: Edit

Rob (et al)

Please cite the current rule or ruling which says that...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 06:28 am: Edit

I think all this talk is making it very confusing.

So hopefully this will assist in clearing it up.

Taking Rob's line of -

"So you could have had:
2xLAV
3x(SAV-CLE-EFF)
2xFHL
LAS, SAS, LAD, 3xSAD "

First of all, you need to form a legal battle force

LAV, LAV, 3SAV, 3SAV, 3SAV isn't - as you can't choose to 'ignore' the SAV's -

So, we get to LAV, 3SAV, 3SAV (or 3 other units) plus a Scout (LAS) say. You could add the Aux Drone Ships as Drone Bombardment Ships - but they don't add EW - so EW is only 3.

The rest of the Aux's can take damage (as per Chucks ruling) - but not the 3rd SAV's escorts.

Damage can be taken -

18 Fighters, 2 x LAV (8), 3 x SAV (6), 2 x CLE (12), 2 x EFF (8), LAS (4), 2 x FHL (8).

Drone Bombardment Ships (302.613) can't take voluntary damage, so the line can take 64 damage before self killing anything.

So, with lots of Aux Ship fillers`- you can pretty much avoid self killing anything.

With a good roll (or facing Maulers/SFG ships), it could change the number of slow pursuit forces which die.

Although, it might make a relatively simple mistake a 'game ender' - I think the normal rules of pursuit could easily be applied.

1) All 'eligible' ships/Aux Units can be directed on
2) Only units on the line, can take voluntary damage.
3) Due to Compot size (Aux ships are smaller in defensive compot) - I am not sure the 'direct as often as you want' normal pursuit rule is required though (would make Maulers an additional force multiplier - and until X-Ships arrive, only the Coalition has them - so this rule would be Pro-Coalition). It could be argued, crippled Aux Units can be multiple directed (insufficient power etc)- whereas uncrippled Aux ships can only be a single target (i.e. although they are slow, they have sufficient power to avoid being directed on, along with other targets (I don't think Stewart's comment on direct damage is correct - as that is purely a pursuit battle rule - not a slow battle, which Richard also seems to think is correct).

This would mean, the above example line would have to take 14 damage (LAV, SAV, 2 x FHL) on self killing, as that damage couldn't be voluntarily take on units not on the line.

So an ubber slow pursuit force of 150 compot - could destroy the bulk of a slow retreating force - but on average dice and even at BIR 8 - damage of 30 to 50 would be more likely , it's likely to see the entire line crippled - or a key unit direct killed and several other units crippled - which for game play, is probably good.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 06:30 am: Edit

302.742-D
"If there is more than one slow unit, all of them are combined into one single battle."

The wording is not entirely clear, but could be read to mean that all slow units present are required to be "on the line" for the slow pursuit combat.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Jason
Not an official answer but I'd say that any units beyond the CR cannot contribute their offensive compot. I'd also go as far as to "think" that line units must be destroyed before a non-line unit could be voluntarily be damaged.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 08:09 pm: Edit

So the question is whether all the slow units are 'on the line' (for directed damage)...

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 05:05 pm: Edit

On the question of OPB's at a capital assault (or any multi-location). I would think they would be treated as any other base, they would be assigned to a planet then stay there for the duration of the battle.

It would be really cool if they could move between rounds though, I just doubt that is how its supposed to be.

How quickly can OPB's pack up and move in SFB terms... any of you SFB guru's want to comment?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 05:17 pm: Edit

The OPB in multi-systems is in staff review.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 06:15 pm: Edit

@Mike: Not that it matters since it's in staff review, but OPBs have positional stabilizers in SFB. SFB never defines how long it takes to activate positional stabilizers, but it is always "longer than the scenario." One could imagine that it takes hours, days, or weeks. I suppose it could be months but that would be pushing it, as you have 6 month turns. Certainly not years.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 08:55 am: Edit

@Ted: Indeed its in Staff Review but I imagine the two most salient items that will determine the outcome are

1. F&E game balance
2. How it works in SFB

Given your info it looks like it is nebulous enough in SFB to not have point 2 really be much of a stickler. If there were a SFB scenario that had it taking 10 SFB turns that would be an almost slam dunk for yes you can move them between turns, if there were a scenario or unit notes that said it took a month that would probably mean you couldn't.

I suppose I see the movement of an OPB as being too complex and risky a procedure to undertaken in the midst of an assault on the hex, but I also admit I have no idea what an OPB really is other than the rules in F&E as the last time I played SFB in any serious manner was in the mid 1980's and never saw an OPB then! I could also imagine that moving an OPB would cause some political uproar. One of the reasons hinted at for why static forces stick to a system is the political problem of abandoning said system. I imagine moving a large bit of defensive hardware would entail its own political costs!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 11:35 am: Edit

Yeah, my guess is that it has to be static. It would be vulnerable while being moved to a different system, and there's little point to adding rules to account for said vulnerability.

Then again, I could be surprised. Been surprised too many times in the past to say for sure.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Well they are considered "set up" when in a hex with enemy units, so to me that says you pick a spot for them and that's where they stay.

And there is 453.31: "An operational Base functions in combat like a set-up mobile base With the exceptions noted below."

The exceptions are it has better EW and 2 repair points.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Good point Rob! I mean I will be devils advocate and say that a MB once setup is forever in the same place (i.e. around the same planet) until its destroyed or torn down and moved whereas a OPB can be considered setup at a different location every turn so maybe?! Anyway if I had to guess I would say it sticks to its location during combat, but just as Ted admits I have been wrong enough times to be circumspect on the prospects of my prediction. And if I am wrong and OPB can move about in combat I can at least say "Oh that is kinda cool!"

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Right, but a MB can't move around in the combat phase, so I would think an OPB would have the same restriction per 453.31.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 05:33 pm: Edit

I think from a playability point of view - the OPB would have to be in the Static force.

When would the defender declare which system it was in?

Could the defender keep moving the OPB, thereby stopping the hex falling - but never risking the OPB (or something) or playing plus/minus point shell games?

The practicality of dragging it off and setting it up (potentially under the guns of your enemy) would seem to make a reasonable and logical rule.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Turtle,

Your question on CW=>NCA conversions isn't that handled in each empires SITS? I ask because I wonder if you have seen something in the rules/SITS I have missed?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 01:38 pm: Edit

No MP, because it regards captured CWs not original empire CWs.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 01:52 pm: Edit

It does say that a Sparrowhawk (which is a CW) cannot be converted into a heavy hawk (such as a FH which is arguably an NCA).

I don't know anything disallowing other empire's CW-NCA conversions.

I think there should be a general rule saying you can't change the basic hull type of a captured ship, except in the case of leader variants.

So no Hydran FF->DW if you aren't a Hydran, and so on.

By Mike Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Ahhhh I did not see the captured CW part! Okay I will look forward to the answer!

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 07:23 pm: Edit

There is, basically one cannot change the base hull, only variants of the captured hull (305.231) - (305.47) specifically disallows Lyran cat/tri, Gorn single/double bubble and Romulan SP to FH/NH...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Stewart's observation further supports my Q&A ruling.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, December 20, 2013 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Ted asks in Q&A:

Q540.253. What happens to economic points that accumulate when a neutral planet turns to one side, but then later is made neutral again and then subsequently turned to the other side?

Detail: A Klingon diplomat operates unopposed at the neutral planet Bezwell Index in hex 2214. On Coalition Turn 3 the Klingons bungle negotiations at Bezwell Index (rolling a 6) and the planet joins the Federation. Per 540.253, 3 economic points accumulate at Bezwell Index on Alliance turn 3. The Federation player does not spend these points on a PGB. On Coalition Turn 4 the Klingon diplomat redeems himself (rolling a 1) and so Bezwell index becomes neutral again. On Coalition Turn 5 the Klingon diplomat succeeds yet again (rolling a 2) and Bezwell index turns Klingon and stays Klingon for the rest of the game.

What happened to the 3 economic points accumulated on turn 3? Do they disappear when Bezwell Index became neutral again? Are they saved and become Klingon property under the restrictions of 540.253? Is the Federation somehow allowed to get access to those 3 EPs? If economic points were not accumulated on Alliance turn 3 for whatever reason, just change the facts so that 3 EPs were saved while Bezwell Index was a Federation planet but before it reverted to neutral and subsequently to Klingon. Thanks.