Archive through January 13, 2014
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through January 13, 2014
APTs can be used to move Admirals that's already in the rules. Since it's not a fleet battle but a 1 vs. 1 attack the Star League is going on the Admiral is transferring his flag to another warship (incoming DN from home/SB/CVS) until his Star League is available. Plus its a couple of day event for a 6 month turn.
Richard I found this in the archive...
From the F&E Master Errata File.
Contains Errata for F&E2K, Fighter Ops, Combined Ops, Advanced Ops, and Planetary Ops, as previously published in Captain’s Logs #21 through #32.
Does not include SIT errata since all SITs are now updated online.
This file updated on 5/14/06 by Nick Blank.
scroll down...
(302.733) In the case of multiple or chain retreats, any hex abandoned during a previous combat round in the same chain of events cannot be considered a supply point for subsequent retreats. For example, a Hydran force on 0617 which retreats to 0718 cannot thereafter retreat back into 0617 as part of the same "battle".
That's also in the F&E 2010 rules. See that word 'abandoned'? That's what I am asking about.
Yeah I guess I was looking for clues to intent of the rule in the archives. The example n both areas seems specific enough but clarity on 'hex abandoned' during a battle within the (chain or multiple hex) retreat process seems a reasonable question.
See why I don't try to give quick advisement on rules anymore?
;-P
FEDS: Ruling issued; see Q&A.
Chuck, many thanks for series of quick rulings!
any chance of getting a ruling on that earlier diplomacy question regarding whether an ejected diplomat actually loses a turn - or just goes back to the capital and can come right back or go somewhere else?
Ted: Asked and answered in REB's Q&A post of December 26, 2013 - 10:43 pm. Sometime I post the answer within the question...
Thanks, sorry about that - will check.
At FEDS request, re-posting this from Q&A:
Question 1:
Is the Hydran FCP pod required to stay on the Hydran Supply Tug permanently, or does it just start on the Hydran Supply Tug and is then available for redistribution during Hydran Turn 3 production?
509.51: This tug cannot be used for any other purpose. It carries the fighter conveyor pallet (513.5) and 20 "ship-turns" of supplies.
513.52: The fighter conveyor pod is carried by a tug or LTT using the rules in (517.0).
My confusion is that 509.51 seems to say that only the Hydran Supply tug has 20 ship-turns of supplies and only it can use the FCP as its tug mission, though I believe the intention is that only the tug in the Expedition fleet (starting at SB 0716) can be the Hydran Supply Tug which provies 20 ship-turns of supplies and does not restrict the FCP. Because the FCP rule (513.52) references the general pod rules of (517.0), I believe that states the FCP may be moved off the Hydran Supply Tug to another tug, but I would like it clarified.
Question 2a, b, & c:
a) Regarding the Hydran Expedition in a General War, is it sufficient for Hydran forces to enter the Fed-Klingon Neutral Zone to activate the Federation early?
b) Is it sufficient then for 1 Hydran ship, uncrippled or crippled, to activate the Federation, in either the NZ hexes or Federation proper?
c) Is it possible and sufficient for Hydran hybrid ships to feed their fighters forward, into either the NZ hexes or Federation proper, in order to activate the Federation?
I'm having difficulty finding unified rules relating to the Hydran Expedition.
I refer to (601.14) "If Hydrans enter Federation territory..." which seems to indicate an actual province controlled by the Federation, but also refer partially to (602.4) ..."If the Klingons do not move any ships into Federation territory, or into neutral zone hexes adjacent to Federation territory..." which seems to provide precedent that entering adjacent neutral zone hexes activates the Federation.
One can also refer to the Hydran Expedition scenario and see (611.5) "Hydran Tactical: Move at least five uncrippled ships into Federation territory. Crippled ships count as 1/2 of an uncrippled ship; fighter factors do not cout..." but I am not sure if this applies force of rule to the General War in any way.
Finally, there is a the bottom of Neutral Zone rules (503.65) this paragraph: "Exception: Hydran ships which enter the Federation-Klingon Neutral Zone are not deemed to violate (503.61) and do not (if they do so with their last movement point of the turn) get the "free" extra movement point to enter Federation space. Klingon units may enter that Neutral Hex (in violation of the normal rules) to fight the Hydrans in a last effort to destroy them before they activate the Federation, but must retreat out of the Neutral Zone into Klingon territory at the end of the Combat Phase."
I take interpret this final rule provided to mean that Klingon ships may enter the Neutral Zone hex, presumably in reality only by Reaction Movement, to try to destroy the final Hydran ships sitting in the Neutral Zone hex before the end of combat. For instance, if 1 Hydran ship remained, and a Klingon force of 20 reacted to the Hydran ship's movement into the NZ hex and destroyed that Hydran ship, because Combat Phase ended with no Hydran ships in the Fed-Klingon NZ, the Fed is not activated. What this IMPLIES but does not directly state, is that it is sufficient for 1 Hydran ship, crippled or uncrippled, or 1 Hydran Fighter to end Combat Phase in the Fed-Klingon NZ hex line and activate the Federation.
Thank you in advance.
Also at FEDS suggestion, re-posting this from Q&A:
Can the Hydrans on turn 3 elect to move their Diplomat from LDR via operational movement, activate LDR as Lyran territory at the moment of the Diplomat's exit which changes the LDR's permanent neutral status, and then the Hydran's launch an invasion of Lyran space through the LDR?
If yes, can this maneuver/surprise attack (though perhaps unwise!) be conducted on any turn?
And if this is possible, without an OOB for the LDR, what ships would the players set up in the LDR, if any?
Thank you.
Here are my thoughts as to the answers to your questions.
Q1: The FCP pod is not stuck to the supply tug. It can be assigned as any pod can be before the start of a scenario or during setup, and does not have to be on the supply tug.
Q2A: No.
Q2B: No to nz hexes, yes to Federaton proper. If using SO, you must have a Hydran diplomat on that ship.
Q2C: No. It is completely impossible to send fighters into the Federation in order to activate them. Fighters cannot move independantly of their carrier (except fighter strikes, which cannot be used except against enemy units, and reaction movement, but not extended reaction). As no Klingon unit can be in the Federation for the Hydran fighters to react to or to fighter strike, it is not possible to create this situation.
Some follow up. My take on things.
Neutral zone hexes are not Federation territory. They are neutral.
***
The rules of a different scenario (such as the Hydran Expedition) do not apply to the General War scenario(s).
***
The reference to a last effort to destroy them (Hydrans) before they activate the Federation refers to the fact that if the Hydrans are not destroyed, then they will (presumably) move into the Federation at the next normal opportunity (presumably retreat).
It does not actually imply that the presence of a surviving Hydran ship (after combat) in the neutral zone activates the Federation.
***
Apart from other rules that might disallow it in certain cases, the minimum requirement given in the general war scenario for the Hydrans to activate the Federation is that the Hydrans must enter the Federation.
If there is no Hydran in the Federation, then there is no activation by the Hydrans of the Federation.
Jared,
I've done a bit of research into your question, but not comprehensive research. And I'm not FEAR or FEDS, so please use this only for planning purposes.
1) There's a build cost for the FCP in the Hydran SIT. That must mean that it can be replaced if lost, right?
Short answer, yes, you can use the FCP on any Hydran TG, but you cannot transfer the special supply ability.
2a) No. You must enter the Federation itself.
2b) Don't forget about the Diplomat. But as long as you bring the Diplomat, and make it to Federation territory, you'll activate the Federation.
2c) I'm pretty sure Diplomats can't ride on fighters. So no, there's no way that feeding fighters forward is sufficient. You have to get a ship there. Furthermore, why would you want to? You give up a hex of movement to feed fighters forward, so why would you ever decide to stop in the NZ when you could just use that final point of movement and enter the Federation itself?
I'm about 97% certain that FEAR/FEDS will rule that you need an actual Hydran ship, carrying the diplomat, to enter Federation territory in order to activate the Federation. If you make it to the F/K NZ on your final pulse of movement, you sit there.
In your supplemental material, you say that you assume the Klingons must enter the NZ by reaction movement. Why did you believe that? It seems you're operating under the assumption that entering the NZ hex and then surviving the combat phase is enough to activate the Federation. It isn't. You must actually spend the next movement pulse and cross the Federation border. And if you get to the K/Z NZ with your final pulse of movement on AT5, you'll need to wait until AT6 Op-movement phase to activate the Federation. And that's only if you have at least two ships. If you only have one ship, the Klingons will enter the NZ during their half of the turn and kill it in one round of combat.
Again, I'm not FEAR/FEDS. I've been surprised by some of their rulings. But the preponderance of special exceptions (the Hydrans don't get the extra pulse of movement to enter a neutral power's territory, the Klingons can enter the F/K NZ in violation of the normal rules, etc...) seems to indicate very strongly that the intent is that you must actually get a ship all the way into Federation territory.
Now a caution: You must read the retreat priorities VERY carefully if you attempt the expedition. You WILL be pinned. You WILL fight, and the Klingons WILL leave you a valid retreat path back towards Hydran territory. You will have to engineer a situation where you put yourself out of supply in order to give you more flexibility in retreat choices.
The most likely result is that you waste a bunch of ships that would be better used in homeworld defense. The Klingons would love this.
[edit] I see that in the time it took to write this, others have chimed in with the same responses. As I said, I'm almost certain that you'll actually need to get a ship into Federation territory to activate the Federation.
A players thoughts on the LDR questions (assumption is context is the General War scenario)
"Can the Hydrans on turn 3 elect to move their Diplomat from LDR via operational movement, activate LDR as Lyran territory at the moment of the Diplomat's exit which changes the LDR's permanent neutral status, and then the Hydran's launch an invasion of Lyran space through the LDR?"
Until Minor Empires is published, I would think it would be prohibited as the LDR forces (OOB) and rules are not officially defined in published rules. I think it would be appropriate to allow it in Minor Empires.
"If yes, can this maneuver/surprise attack (though perhaps unwise!) be conducted on any turn?"
My two cents is that once Minor Empires is published, you can withdraw the diplomat at any time, but the only result is that the LDR rejoins/allies with the Lyran empire when the diplomat leaves (similar to how the Feds activate if a Hydran diplomat gets to Fed space on an expedition ship). It don't think it should allow the Hydrans to attack the Lyrans (LDR) any sooner than the scenario rules allow the Lyrans to be attacked.
"And if this is possible, without an OOB for the LDR, what ships would the players set up in the LDR, if any?"
There is a playtest/draft/proposed LDR OOB and rules in Captains Log #46. It contains ~ 10 warships, ~ 5 police ships and ~ 20 auxillaries.
Thanks, I've read the retreat rules enough to understand the Hydran Expedition (edit: not meant to be a snarky comment, but it sounded like it!).
As to both Matthew and Richard stating a requirement for the Hydrans to have a Diplomat on board a ship to activate the Federation, can you please quote the rule so I can read it? I didn't see this in the General War scenario rules. Like I said, lack of unifying rules in this regard are troublesome.
Since this is the discussion area, I'll go ahead and discuss! I respectfully disagree with Matt and Richard. I believe the NZ hex line is sufficient, and the rule (602.4) provides the precedent.
I couldn't think of any, but can anyone else think of/quote rules wherein NZ hexes have specific rules with regard to activating war, limited war, or other special rules that would relate?
An example against my argument is that races can enter the NZ hexes adjacent to the LDR without activating the LDR.
Hydran diplomat to activate the Federation is in strategic operations 540.29.
It's in the diplomat rules in SO, go check it out. :-)
(602.4) has nothing to do with Hydran activation of the Federation. The sentence you partially quote says that if the Klingons don't do that, the Federation uses limited war rules. If the Klingons DID do that, it means THEY declared war on the Federation, which puts the Federation at war.
I suggest that if you still disagree, that you take it to Q&A, with a clear explanation of HOW you think it applies. Consider carefully before you post it.
I did post it in Q&A, and Chuck suggested I post it here first since it requires a detailed answer.
There's a lot of back and forth on rules in general, and as this one is important to my strategery, I wanted an official ruling.
Look at other Q&As and compare to yours, and rephrase so that it is in a format that is similar, and that your question is clear, without a lot of fuzziness. Only ask THIS specific question. Perhaps you'll have better results.
The rule you quoted above is not part of the first six turn scenario (or sub scenario) and does not apply. It is for the three turn scenario where (normally) the Klingons invade the Federation and in no place mentions the Hydrans at all.
There's a very specific 'must enter Federation' part of activating the Federation with the Hydrans. Neutral zones are not part of any empire, so it's not going to count (imo), unless you find an explicit exception, not some vague roundabout not directly stated but sort of maybe implied feeling.
Just sayin'.
(602.4) "If the Klingons do not move any ships into Federation territory, or into neutral hexes adjacent to Federation territory, these special "Limited War" rules remain in effect."
This rule, despite being written after turn 8, is one that I can find that gives precedent that entering the neutral zone line activates a response from the opposing empire. Another example (though I can't find the rule) is that, as I understand it, a Kzinti fleet placed on BATS 0803 at the beginning of the game, could not react to Lyran fleet movement anywhere in Lyran territory, even though said movement could be within the 2 hex reaction range.
The war technically begins and the Kzinti are then capable of reaction when the Lyran's enter the NZ hex line, not a Kzinti province.
Federation goes to full war with the Klingons when Klingons enter Fed neutral zone territory.
Same goes for Rom-Fed, and Gorn-Rom (if I am understanding this correctly)
Why would this not apply to the Hydran Expedition?
"Federation goes to full war with the Klingons when Klingons enter Fed neutral zone territory.
Same goes for Rom-Fed, and Gorn-Rom (if I am understanding this correctly)
Why would this not apply to the Hydran Expedition? "
By this interpretation, the result of entering the neutral zone would be for the Federation to declare war on the HYDRANS. Fortunately for the Hydrans, the rule on the Hydran Expedition gives them a waiver from having war declared on them if they violate the neutral zone of the Federation. However, there is no rule anywhere that states that the Federation will go to war with a third party if the Hydrans enter their neutral zone. If you wish to convince me otherwise, get a Q&A ruling or find such a rule.
I previously stated that the ability to enter neutral zone hexes adjacent to the LDR is an argument against my theory regarding Hydran Expedition-Fed NZ activation. I retract that statement.
"(503.64) Races at Wartime status (652.2) may occupy and hold Neutral Zone hexes adjacent to the Tholians, LDR, and WYN cluster. Use (503.62) in that case."
This rule carves out a special exception for the LDR, Tholian, and the WYN cluster so that you can enter their bordering neutral zones without activating them or getting interned.
Combining this with my statement above seems to further indicate that a Hydran ship (with a Diplomat) entering the Fed-Klingon NZ is sufficient.
Richard,
I'm just trying to discuss. Heck, I wouldn't have even bothered asking here if FEDS hadn't suggested it since it will be some time before a ruling can be given.
"By this interpretation, the result of entering the neutral zone would be for the Federation to declare war on the HYDRANS. Fortunately for the Hydrans, the rule on the Hydran Expedition gives them a waiver from having war declared on them if they violate the neutral zone of the Federation."
This doesn't disprove what I am suggesting. I agree that "(601.14) If Hydrans enter Federation territory..." seems straight forward in its meaning that it requires a Hydran ship to enter a Federation province, however, the other evidence I presented at least warrants a clarification or an exception to be entered into (601.14), such as "A Hydran ship entering the Federation Neutral Zone is NOT sufficient to activate the Federation early."
With respect, I don't need to convince you 
. If no ruling comes in before Alliance turn 3 on my game with Pete, then I'll defer to popular interpretation that the Hydrans must enter Federation proper. And my face-to-face opponent and I will continue with the agreement that the Fed-NZ line is sufficient, and it'll all be fine.
Paul>>>
"Until Minor Empires is published, I would think it would be prohibited as the LDR forces (OOB) and rules are not officially defined in published rules. I think it would be appropriate to allow it in Minor Empires."
Regarding my question on the LDR tactic. I want to disagree, but I probably should just agree here because yours is the practical argument. Due to no existing OOB, there's no vetted balance for any ships added to the LDR. This presumably would require play-testing.
It however is irritating. Why am I forced to send a DIP to the LDR if I cannot use it to my benefit in an unorthodox way? Or to ask it differently, why is the rule in there to begin with that I need a DIP in the LDR when it's impossible to remove it based on lack of OOB anyways? Would it not be more to the point for Hydran diplomat to START in the LDR as part of the setup, and then a rule in the OOB or scenario which simply says "This diplomat can never be moved until LDR expansion is released."