Q302.733 Special Priority 3E

The Hydran player has done a partial retreat out of 0617 (the capital) to 0718 (Hydraxaport), leaving behind a SB, several not ship units and some ships.

He does a fight at Hydraxaport, his opponent retreats, and then also retreats, desiring to go to 0617.

After examining 302.733 Special priority 3E je reads that it says that he cannot return to a hex he abandoned in a prior retreat. My question is on the meaning of abandoned. I suspect, but am not sure, that it is intended to mean 'retreated from' rather than 'no longer occupying the hex', but I am not sure of this, and it would make a difference (at least it would if my opponent hadn't let it slide in this case).

I seek clarification.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 12:21 am: Edit

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Quote:

SPECIAL-PRIORITY-3E: In the case of multiple or chain retreats, any hex abandoned during a previous combat round in the same chain of events cannot be considered a supply point for subsequent retreats.

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By Jared Black (Attrition) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Question 1:

Is the Hydran FCP pod required to stay on the Hydran Supply Tug permanently, or does it just start on the Hydran Supply Tug and is then available for redistribution during Hydran Turn 3 production?

509.51: This tug cannot be used for any other purpose. It carries the fighter conveyor pallet (513.5) and 20 "ship-turns" of supplies.

513.52: The fighter conveyor pod is carried by a tug or LTT using the rules in (517.0).

My confusion is that 509.51 seems to say that only the Hydran Supply tug has 20 ship-turns of supplies and only it can use the FCP as its tug mission, though I believe the intention is that only the tug in the Expedition fleet (starting at SB 0716) can be the Hydran Supply Tug which provies 20 ship-turns of supplies and does not restrict the FCP. Because the FCP rule (513.52) references the general pod rules of (517.0), I believe that states the FCP may be moved off the Hydran Supply Tug to another tug, but I would like it clarified.


Question 2a, b, & c:

a) Regarding the Hydran Expedition in a General War, is it sufficient for Hydran forces to enter the Fed-Klingon Neutral Zone to activate the Federation early?

b) Is it sufficient then for 1 Hydran ship, uncrippled or crippled, to activate the Federation, in either the NZ hexes or Federation proper?

c) Is it possible and sufficient for Hydran hybrid ships to feed their fighters forward, into either the NZ hexes or Federation proper, in order to activate the Federation?

I'm having difficulty finding unified rules relating to the Hydran Expedition.

I refer to (601.14) "If Hydrans enter Federation territory..." which seems to indicate an actual province controlled by the Federation, but also refer partially to (602.4) ..."If the Klingons do not move any ships into Federation territory, or into neutral zone hexes adjacent to Federation territory..." which seems to provide precedent that entering adjacent neutral zone hexes activates the Federation.

One can also refer to the Hydran Expedition scenario and see (611.5) "Hydran Tactical: Move at least five uncrippled ships into Federation territory. Crippled ships count as 1/2 of an uncrippled ship; fighter factors do not cout..." but I am not sure if this applies force of rule to the General War in any way.

Finally, there is a the bottom of Neutral Zone rules (503.65) this paragraph: "Exception: Hydran ships which enter the Federation-Klingon Neutral Zone are not deemed to violate (503.61) and do not (if they do so with their last movement point of the turn) get the "free" extra movement point to enter Federation space. Klingon units may enter that Neutral Hex (in violation of the normal rules) to fight the Hydrans in a last effort to destroy them before they activate the Federation, but must retreat out of the Neutral Zone into Klingon territory at the end of the Combat Phase."

I take interpret this final rule provided to mean that Klingon ships may enter the Neutral Zone hex, presumably in reality only by Reaction Movement, to try to destroy the final Hydran ships sitting in the Neutral Zone hex before the end of combat. For instance, if 1 Hydran ship remained, and a Klingon force of 20 reacted to the Hydran ship's movement into the NZ hex and destroyed that Hydran ship, because Combat Phase ended with no Hydran ships in the Fed-Klingon NZ, the Fed is not activated. What this IMPLIES but does not directly state, is that it is sufficient for 1 Hydran ship, crippled or uncrippled, or 1 Hydran Fighter to end Combat Phase in the Fed-Klingon NZ hex line and activate the Federation.

Thank you in advance.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:59 pm: Edit

...because friendly mobile units remain

Let me check on this, if this is with a 'partial retreat' (there are still mobile units remaining in the capital) then those 'retreated units' can re-retreat back to the capital.
FEDS: Those units that did a partial retreat can only "re-retreat" back to capital hex if the hex they went to became or was already an unresolved battle hex from which another retreat could occur --AND-- the retreat priorities permit them to do so.

But if it was a 'full retreat' (end of the battle hex, no mobile units remaining in the capital) then could the re-retreat (back to the capital) happen?
FEDS: NO.

By Jared Black (Attrition) on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 01:09 am: Edit

Can the Hydrans on turn 3 elect to move their Diplomat from LDR via operational movement, activate LDR as Lyran territory at the moment of the Diplomat's exit which changes the LDR's permanent neutral status, and then the Hydran's launch an invasion of Lyran space through the LDR?

If yes, can this maneuver/surprise attack (though perhaps unwise!) be conducted on any turn?

And if this is possible, without an OOB for the LDR, what ships would the players set up in the LDR, if any?

Thank you.

By Michael Alan Calhoon (Mcalhoon2) on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 07:04 pm: Edit

(515.33) Are theater transports restricted from ad-hoc escort eligibility as LTTs and Tugs are?

It can be interpreted that the intent of (515.33) is to prohibit the use of transport ships from performing duties as an ad hoc escort. Unless overruled by ADB, theater transports are too be govern by (515.33) and may not serve as ad hoc escorts.

FEDS SENDS

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Jared:

Some of your questions require detailed answers -- are these questions related to an actual, on-going scenario --OR-- are they questions related to strategic studies and/or game theory.

If the later, may I suggest you continue this in the Q&A Discussion topic with other player input and then either the FEAR or myself can formally answer after we work to meet and complete our CL48 staffing duties this month.

By Jared Black (Attrition) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 07:59 am: Edit

Chuck,

The question on the LDR tactic is theory. The questions regarding the hydrans are current game, but it'll be a few weeks or maybe more before alliance turn 3 comes up.

I'll copy paste it to Q&a discussion today at some point.

Thanks.

By Roger Rardain (Sky_Captain) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 07:59 pm: Edit

I am not sure where to ask this question, so I hope I am in the correct place.

I note (530.222) in Fighter Ops indicates that a changing a carrier to carry heavy fighters requires one to pay for the larger fighter group.

Certain Romulan carriers (NHB, FHB, SPB) already have 8 fighter factors. The cost for conversion of the fighters should be 0 (zero) EPS.
However the Jan 2012 Romulan SIT gives the SPB-SPV conversion as 1+4.

I request a FEDS review on this, as it should go into the update of Fighter Ops.

I would presume that NHB/FHB/SPB carriers are a bit different in that the Rom actually swaps out modules to carry the heavy fighters, I would propose XxxHawk-B to XxxHawk-V conversions should all cost 1+0.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 08:37 pm: Edit

F&E STAFF:

Was there any reason why the SIT SPB tp SPV conversion cost is listed as 1+4?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 12:26 am: Edit

Hydran Expedition Questions

Supporting Text:

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Quote:

(601.14) HYDRAN GAMBIT: If Hydrans enter Federation territory, the Federation joins the Alliance (as it normally would on Turn #7, at full War status and able to attack the Klingons immediately; set up the Federation ships at this time). If the Hydrans enter Federation territory (Turn #6 or before) during the Coalition turn, the Federation economy is at 75 percent on that turn and 100 percent on the next and thereafter. If the Hydrans enter Federation territory on an Alliance turn, the Federation economy is at 50 percent that turn (spent immediately), 75 percent on the next turn, and 100 percent on the next turn and thereafter.

(540.29) [Extract] While the Hydrans could send a diplomatic team to the Federation during the early turns of the war, only the arrival of the Expedition itself (with a diplomatic team on board, a team that traveled the entire distance on a warship of the Expedition) can trigger early Federation entry.

(503.65) [Extract] …Exception: Hydran ships which enter the Federation-Klingon Neutral Zone are not deemed to violate (503.61) and do not (if they do so with their last movement point of the turn) get the "free" extra movement point to enter Federation space. Klingon units may enter that Neutral Hex (in violation of the normal rules) to fight the Hydrans in a last effort to destroy them before they activate the Federation, but must retreat out of the Neutral Zone into Klingon territory at the end of the Combat Phase.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 01:09 am: Edit

Q503.65 It is the coalition turn (let us say turn 5). Klingons have entered the Federation neutral zone and are battling Hydran ships. After one round of battle, the Hydrans decline first retreat option.

If the Klingons decline their retreat option, and then the Hydrans retreat, are the Klingons interned? Or is it a moot point as the Federation has now (presumably) declared war?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 01:30 am: Edit

Q503.65 part deaux. It is the coalition turn (let us say turn 5). Klingons have entered the Federation neutral zone and are battling Hydran ships. After one round of battle, the Hydrans declare retreat on 2nd option. The Klingons are staying in the hex. The Klingons pursue crippled Hydran units and kill all Hydran ships, annihilating the Hydran line and also all Hydran units in the hex. At end of Coalition turn Klingons are in the neutral zone hex, because they pursued instead of retreating. Does the presence of Klingons in the neutral zone hex under this circumstance result in automatic war with the Federation as a result of violating the neutral zone?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 01:44 am: Edit

In this rare case, the Klingons must then retrograde after the combat phase.

FEDS SENDS

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:38 am: Edit

Follow up question Q503.65. What happens if these events (in the prior two questions) occur on the Alliance turn? In this case retrograde movement is not allowed normally.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:58 am: Edit

The Klingons would get two retreat options then, forcing them to use the 2nd I would think.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:31 am: Edit

In this extremely rare case during the Alliance player turn, the Klingons must either retreat at the conclusion of the battle or, if they choose to pursue the Hydrans, they will be interned since they have exhausted all movement options to leave as required during the given player turn.

FEDS SENDS

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Q203.7423 and 203.734 in view of 203.71. Is reserve movement performed one fleet at a time, or is it simultaneous? Prior to commencing reserve movement there are two paths to a valid destination battle hex. Each of these paths contains enemy ships, but each has fewer than half of the ships in the reserve fleet. The opponent, to destroy more enemy ships, attempts to move both reserve fleets to the destination battle hex, but by both routes. Thus, the opponent asserts he can leave behind ships along each of the two possible paths. I argue that reserve movement is performed one fleet at a time (203.71). Therefore, once the first reserve fleet leaves behind ships to satisfy pinning along one of the paths, the second reserve fleet is obligated by 203.7423 to follow the same path as the first reserve, as doing so will require detachment of the fewest of its ships. However, opponent counters that 203.734 allows the defending player to ignore any path which contains one or more enemy units when moving a reserve fleet. Thus, opponent reasons that he can ignore the path that contains the hex through which the first reserve went through (as it does indeed contain an enemy unit even though he left a ship behind). In ignoring that path he can go to the other path and leave behind another ship on his way to the destination hex.

So, the question is, how do the rules operate here? Can he take both paths with both fleets, or must one fleet effectively open a path for the other?

If it helps, here is the specific situation. Two Kzinti reserves are located offmap (8 SE each). A battle hex is in 1802, and the Kzinti designates 1802 as the destination hex for both reserves. Hexes 1701 and 1702 each contain 1 Kzinti POL and 3 Lyran ships (2*FF,DWS each). 1502 and 1602 each have a single FF. 1401 is captured by the Coalition and contains a number of Coalition units.

The Kzinti player wants to send 1 reserve through 1701 and the other through 1702, both going to 1802. I say he has to pick one or the other for the 1st reserve fleet, and then the second has to go through the same path since that leaves the least number of ships. He says he can ignore any path with enemy ships, and so picks 1701 for the 1st reserve fleet and ignores 1701 for the second reserve fleet so that he can pick 1702 as being in the path for the 2nd reserve fleet.

Ruling requested, please.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 06:16 pm: Edit

MOVEMENT OF RESERVE FLEETS

First, movement of reserve fleets are indeed moved sequentially (how else could a X-ship react to this operational form of reserve movement?).

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Quote:

(203.71) OPERATIONAL RULES: Reserve Fleets are moved using the rules for Operational Movement, except that no Reaction Movement (205.0) by the Phasing Player (or any other) is allowed. X-ships‡ form an exception (523.222) as they can react to Reserve Movement.

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 11:48 am: Edit

Is there any provision in F&E for the use of remote-controlled fighter operations as detailed in SFB Module J2, or would that sort of thing be abstracted into (or below) what this game considers to count as regular fighter operations?

FEDS: No, there is no such provision in the rules. Unless deemed otherwise by ADB, this level of detail is abstracted within F&E.

Extraneous text removed - FEAR

FEDS: This is the improper topic to discuss or propose why something should or should not be used within F&E.

By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Why questions go in the why section, this is not a Q&A discussion. Extra posts have been removed. - FEAR

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Q: Concerning the Gorn LSC:

From OOB:

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Quote:

Special: Can produce one LSC (sub for or convert from CL) on Turn #5 or later at no cost; thereafter, normal rules and limits apply (maximum production one per year Y170+).

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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 02:54 pm: Edit

remote controlled fighters ARE subsumed into the game system.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Deleted by author. Wrong topic.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 04:44 pm: Edit

I had posted the first three of these questions in the ISC War AAR thread, but probably should have brought them up here instead.

*In (624.27), the Inter-Stellar Concordium is at a peacetime economy for the duration of the Gathering Winds scenario. According to (431.21) in F&E 2010, an empire can build a mobile base in addition to its scheduled production "if at war". However, in this case, the Y168 ISC OOB in (624.43) has only six pre-constructed MBs available, yet has twelve on-map BATS locations to attempt to place bases into. Should there be an exception made for the ISC allowing them to build MBs while at a peacetime economy, or is there a pre-existing detail which I may have overlooked?

*According to (624.43), the set-up areas for the Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Fleets include the outer ring of provinces (6003, 5903, 5604, 5306, 5209, 5211, 5413, 5716, and 6016) which under (624.22) have yet to be integrated into the ISC. If the deployment areas are left as-is, the ISC player would be able to get a "head-start" on capturing these provinces by simply placing his ships from the relevant fleets there at setup. Is this intentional, or should the ISC be obliged to start from within its pre-Y168 territory instead? (If the latter is the case, that would leave the Second Fleet to set up in provinces 6005 and 5905, the Third in 5606, the Fourth in 5409, the Fifth in 5713 and 6013, and the Sixth in 5411.)

*Over in (625.3), it's noted that the Pacification scenario begins with the ISC Player Turn on Turn #1, and ends on the Non-Aligned Player(s) Turn on Turn #10. But in (624.3), whose Player Turn goes first: the Gorn/Romulan side, or the ISC? The notes in (624.26) only refer to the order in which the Gorns and Romulans alternate their movement in their shared Player Turn. But there is a line in (624.261) which states that the Romulans and Gorns "are for the purposes of convenience considered the Alliance". If that means the Gorns and Romulans move in the Alliance Player Turn, does the ISC then go first alongside the Coalition? (This would also be worth noting were this scenario to be played alongside The Wind.)

And one other question for now:

*Does Gathering Winds itself count as an "historical" scenario (in that both the Romulan and Gorn Home Fleets really were active on the ISC border to the extent which this scenario allows for), or is it an exaggeration of the kind of activity which took place while the ISC was annexing and fortifying its anti-spinward borders?