****THIS IS NOT A FEDS RULING****

This is how I am reading this whole thing:

.	If an empire successfully raids:	and other friendly ships:	and ememy ships:	then the province is considered to be:	then, during the enemy econ phase the province yields:	and during the following friendly econ phase the province yields:	Its long term capture status:
.
.	an ememy province	remain in the province	remain in the province	Disrupted	1 EP	0 EP	n/a
.			do not remain in the province	Captured	0 EP	1 EP	Counts toward LTC
.
.		do not remain in the province	remain in the province	Disrupted	1 EP	0 EP	n/a
.			do not remain in the province	Disrupted	1 EP	0 EP	n/a
.
.	a captured friendly province (Not LTC)	remain in the province	remain in the province	Disrupted	0 EP	1 EP	removed
.			do not remain in the province	Friendly Owned*	0 EP	2 EP	n/a
.
.		do not remain in the province	remain in the province	Captured	0 EP	0 EP	resets LTC count
.			do not remain in the province	Friendly Owned*	0 EP	2 EP	removed
.
.	a conquered friendly province (LTC) (438.1)	remain in the province	remain in the province	Captured	1 EP	0 EP	uneffected
.			do not remain in the province	Friendly Owned*	0 EP	2 EP	removed
.
.		do not remain in the province	remain in the province	Conquered	0 EP	0 EP	counts 1/2 turn toward annexation (448.22)
.			do not remain in the province	Friendly Owned*	0 EP	2 EP	removed

Comments and suggested changes are welcome. If there you think anything is error please feel free to point out the rule so I can consider it for correcting this chart.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 03:56 pm: Edit

What is the * for?

Also look at 430.24.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 06:38 pm: Edit

FEDS rhetorical question based on Q&A....

If an attacker must reveal his battle forces in a capital assault then how would one conceal the use of a command point?

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Hey Chuck,

The way I've always handled it is that the command point decision is declared after the division of defending forces but before the battle forces are set up.

I think it would be unbalancing to let the defender to decide after seeing what the attacker did.

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 06:18 pm: Edit

With respect, Rob's actual question is whether the owner of the Capital hex can decide to use command points AFTER seeing if the attacker has used command points.

I have maintained that the command point decision (as per rules) is a simultaneous reveal and that the defender cannot use them in response to seeing the attacker use them first.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 06:59 pm: Edit

What does the SoP say?...

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Rob, capital command point use is made before the first approach battle force is selected!! See (308.94), this applies to both players.

As for the others, well, some will be obvious and some might be a bluff (when using the battleboards) DB is obvious, MMG/G use is a maybe (there are other conditions), rescue tugs are after the battle...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:12 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

(308.92) Each point (a maximum of two per Battle Hex) allows the player to use one extra ship in the Battle Force of one Battle Hex for one Player Turn. Their use is announced when the first Battle Force in that Battle Hex is revealed.

---

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:31 pm: Edit

The SoP is not specific enough in this case as it is written assuming a normal battle hex and not a Capital battle hex.

The SoP in 5-3E does state that command points and pretty much everything else is declared when the battle forces are revealed at the same time.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Stewart, what if there wasn't an Approach battle?

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:48 pm: Edit

But I think Stewart's point is that the use of command points in the approach battle would be simultaneous.

Why would that no longer be the case if there is no approach? That would create a pretty big disincentive for the defender to ever take an approach battle.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Correct, but the point use is not linked to the Approach battle, but rather to the first battle lines revealed in that hex as per 308.92.

308.94 does not say what Stewart is saying it says. It says:

---

Quote:

(308.94) USE IN CAPITAL ASSAULTS: In the case of a capital assault, one point allows an extra ship in the Battle Force fighting in one system (this point would not be used in Approach Battles), while two Command Points count as one Command Point for each system (this counts as one Command Point in any Approach Battle).

---

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Also, I'd point out that the SoP isn't useful for resolving this since it doesn't have any reference to the capital assault procedure. Somehow, that was never put in.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 08:36 pm: Edit

The SoP (105.0) does reference capital assaults:

---

Quote:

5-2B2: Conduct base battle using combat steps below; see exception for Capital Assaults (511.5).

---

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Yeah, can you point out where it says to divide the ships and deploy battle forces?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 08:56 pm: Edit

(511.5) PROCEDURE FOR CAPITAL ASSAULTS is a subset of SoP (105.0); the procedures for dividing and deploying capital assault battle forces are contained in the step-by-step procedures within (511.5).

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Chuck,

The point is that the procedure for capital assaults should be in the SoP. What you are referring to is 5-2B2.

Command points are revealed in 5-3G. There isn't a note there saying that command points aren't simultaneous for capital assaults.

As you would say, where is the enabling rule?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 11:30 pm: Edit

The enabling rule is:

5-2B2: Conduct base battle using combat steps below; see exception for Capital Assaults (511.5).

You still follow the steps in (511.5) using the steps to divide and establish battle forces; force selection is still covered by the SoP.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 01:13 am: Edit

Basically this comes down to a gambit on both sides...

If the defender accepts approach then the defender must also commit his command points and if the attack is a feign capital assault then the defender losses any committed command points if the attacker leaves without moving on to the capital.

If the defender declined approach then the attacker must show his fleets and committed command points prior to the first assault round.

The use of Admirals lessens the pain a bit for both sides.

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 06:30 am: Edit

Chuck,

With all due respect, what you are describing is far from an equal gambit on both sides. You are saying that the defender gets to choose to use command points after seeing the attacker's choice. This is a huge advantage, that more than outweighs the possible risk of an approach battle. An approach battle that many players don't take, and now with your interpretation, that approach battle would be even less probable, even foolish.

What you are quoting is not an enabling rule. It's basically a reference that says "go here". When you do "go there", the capital assault procedure has not one word that says that the command point procedure is changed to the defender gets to see first. It's a pretty significant item to not even be mentioned.

Is this an official ruling then? I think you are wrong, but I want to go on with the game.

If this is a ruling then I submit my official appeal to Steve.

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 07:14 am: Edit

Another question I have in this:

What if the attacker only attacks one system on the first round? That battle force would only need 1 command point (and an admiral) to get to the maximum number of ships.

If on the second round, the attacker starts attacking all the other systems, would the extra command points be revealed then? I ask this because if we are tying the revealing of the command points to the actual deployment of the battle line, I would think it's possible that the attacker could spend the points in this fashion and spend them piecemeal rather than declaring them all at once.

Not an argument here, just want to understand it.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 10:01 am: Edit

No, the Command Point rules are pretty clear on that count Pete:

---

Quote:

(308.92) EFFECT: Each point allows the player to use one extra ship in the Battle Force of one Battle Hex for one Player Turn. Their use is announced when the first Battle Force in that Battle Hex is revealed.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 11:42 am: Edit

This is the Q&A Discussions topic where everyone (including Mike and I) can participate in debates and discussions. I typically do not make ruling in this topic (but may refer players to a ruling has been made in the official Q&A topic.) This topic also allows Mike and I to cross exam the parties of all sides to help us make the best interpretation of the rules before we post an official ruling. When Mike and I make official rulings, we typically will use our official titles (FEAR/FEDS) to make it clear the authority we are acting under.

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 11:51 am: Edit

Rob,

Nice try, but you are being disingenuous. You know that battle forces are revealed simultaneously and that is what the rule refers to. 5-3G specifically says this.

The exception is the capital hex, and there is nowhere that you can point to that says command point announcement is not simultaneous in the capital hex.

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Thursday, April 24, 2014 - 12:18 pm: Edit

I've looked at the sequence of play again, and this is what I've found:

5-3D: Players secretly select flagships (302.32) based on eligible
Command Ratings (302.33). Use Command Points
(first round only) to increase command limits (308.9).
The presence of an admiral on a flagship in the Battle
Force increases that ship’s Command Rating. The presence
of a Marine Major General may allow for one commando
ship from the same empire to be added to the
Battle Force above Command Rating (321.31).

5-3E: Players secretly select units to be in the Battle Force, including
drone bombardment ships and escorts, rescue
tugs, FEGs, CVEGs, and Battle Groups; admirals/generals
can transfer (316.144);

5-3G: Battle Force deployments are announced. Designate: the
unit receiving the formation bonus (308.7); any cloaked
decoys providing a formation bonus (538.54); scout
bonus (308.53); ISC units receiving core formation positions
based on (324.21). Designate uncrippled ships
to tow crippled units from web (512.32). Reveal use of
Command Points (308.92) and drone bombardment
(309.0). All of these actions done simultaneously.

So, actually, the decision to use command points is in step 5-3D, and this is before battle forces are revealed. In fact, it is before units are even selected.

So, even in the capital hex, the decision comes before the reveal, which means that you cannot make the decision after seeing the battle force in 5-3G.