Archive through February 27, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS:
F&E Future Products (Far Term):
F&E: Early Wars:
Archive through February 27, 2003
F&E EARLY WARS
Having recently purchased F&E2K, and being an avid player of EY SFB, I wanted to start a discussion of Early Wars, to get input from the F&E experts. While I played F&E a bit a decade or so ago, and have decent general knowledge, I'm only a slight step above "newbie" in F&E game knowledge. 
OK - starting with movement/scale/etc. there are some core difference between GW SFB and EY SFB.
1. ships are slower. Y-class ships have a max speed of 25, W-class ships have a max speed of 17; GW ships can go 31.
2. detection radii are reduced by approximately 1/2. There is a two level reduction in TacIntel (D17.0) which equates to approximately a 50% reduction in detail at X range and would equate to an approximately equivilant reduction in Strategic Intel range.
In my mind, at least, I see two methods of handling this:
1. Keep map scale the same, but reduce ship speed (to 3 or 4) and reduce Reaction Radius (same hex for ships, 1 hex radius for scouts).
PROS:
...opens possibility of using current map
...stays compatible with current F&E for the LOOOOONG campaign
CONS:
...reduced reaction radius will have impact on game (I believe a lot, you guys would have to tell me how much)
...reduced detail for new, era-specific maps
2. Change map scale to approx. 2/3 of current map scale (approx. 300 parsecs per hex), so Y-class units move 6 hexes, W-class move 4 and reaction radius can remain the same (2 for scout, 1 for others)
PROS:
...no change to F&E gameplay, making it easier to balance and easier player transition
...creates opportunity to create era-specific maps
CONS:
...requires new map
...incompatible with current F&E map; no LOOONG campaign
There are undoubtedly additional pros and cons for both of these that I am hoping some of you could provide. At this point, my preference is #2, FWIW.
NEXT: I'll study the combat rules some more and see what I come up with.
We're not going to do a new map.
WOuldn't making the map larger like that be the same as just imposing movement and reaction restrictions on the regular map? If you'd want to do that in order to get the proper reaction movements, you'll then have bases that are still out of reaction range due to the scale being smaller, thereby having more hexes.
The reduced reation would be a big deal, but it would hurt both sides, and make reserves very important to defend those border bases. Of course it may also lead to spreading ships out to defend borders, instead of clumping on one base that could react to 3 or more others.
In the EY era, only Vulcans and bases have scout channels. So it would probably make sense to keep the reaction rules the same as the standardard version. That is, in most cases extended reation ranges would only be effective around bases; it gives them important defensive value.
So I think going with speed reduction of option 1 works even without changing the reaction rule. Go with speed 4 for Y ships and 3 for the W ships.
WOuldn't making the map larger like that be the same as just imposing movement and reaction restrictions on the regular map? From a scale standpoint, yes, from a gameplay aspect, no.
If you'd want to do that in order to get the proper reaction movements, you'll then have bases that are still out of reaction range due to the scale being smaller, thereby having more hexes. Correct - the number of units to cover the border would even be the same.
The reduced reation would be a big deal, but it would hurt both sides, and make reserves very important to defend those border bases. Of course it may also lead to spreading ships out to defend borders, instead of clumping on one base that could react to 3 or more others. This is my fear. Having to have a unit in each hex of the border gives far fewer "tactical" options (effectively removing reaction movement as a rule). I believe it would also give an advantage to the (strategic) attacker, since they could more easily exploit a hole in the line, especially considering pinning. Or am I missing something?
In the EY era, only Vulcans and bases have scout channels. So it would probably make sense to keep the reaction rules the same as the standardard version. That is, in most cases extended reation ranges would only be effective around bases; it gives them important defensive value. So I think going with speed reduction of option 1 works even without changing the reaction rule. Go with speed 4 for Y ships and 3 for the W ships. This would work from a game standpoint, but keeping the reaction ranges the same as the GW ones would not be very representative of the differences in EY, IMO.
Actually, the attacker would be able to create 'holes' in your lines simply by the fact that you can't react two hexes, and just about all bases are two or more hexes apart. Eventually this will lead to both side being down to one or two bases, which will contain all of their ships on the front. However, aren't bases blown up/attacked fairly often during those times anyway? The thing is, with the reduced movement, enemy ships have a tough time making a deep strike, rendering those rear SBs as major fortresses.
Once both sides loose enough border bases, they can no longer effectively launch a strike into enemy territory, as they just don't have the supply range to do it. Only an overwhelming border attack will have the potential to allow the attacker to keep pushing into enemy space. Otherwise both side will just crush each others border bases, forcing a stalemate.
The big difference in EY is that there is no way to build bases (well, it takes about 2-3 years and has no interim function) so there is no real way to penetrate into the depth of the enemy. Border wars only. How the Klingons did it is, well, a special rule base on history.
And, again, we're not going to do a new map. If that's the way Andy wants it (i.e., he insists on a new map) we'll shut down this topic and he can go discuss it on yahoo.
I like the no reaction (1 hex with scouts). It would force a new mind set on players. Also, I think it's pretty "historically" unrealistic to have all ships sitting on 1 or 2 points (as happens most often in F&E). If you can react far, you'll spread out more & have "realistic" pickets.
Extended reaction for Scouts only seems fine to me. With moves of 3 for W and 4 for Y ships you will not be able to run far past someone or make deep penitration raids, and bases have special sensors so your boarder picket still works.
Has anyone really made a listing (like from Module Y, or GPD) of speeds capable of the MY/EY ships.
Like can a MY ship do Warp 8? But just do speed 25 on the combat map?
If it can do Warp 8, then it should be able to react.
Well to explain the Klingon/Lyran capturing of the Hydran Homeworlds without bases.
It's elementary my dear Watson.
They had a pre-LTF.
I'd actually prefer to keep the scale the same (Andy's option 1) and reduce the movement ranges in EY. I know this will have an impact on the way the F&E game is played (I don't pretend to be an expert in this arena), but I think that is actually OK. Slowing the ships down and reducing reaction ranges will introduce a new strategic dynamic in what is, frankly, a different era of combat (Smaller, dispersed squadron actions rather than massive fleet battles perhaps).
Can't you do it through the Lyran-Hydran Border? I thought there was a planet that allowed supply from Lyran space to Hydran homeworld... but I might be way off on how supply works (now, or in early years).
SVC. I'm not insisting on anything, just throwing around ideas. I must admit though, that I have difficulty envisioning how the current map would work, considering some of Paravian and Carnivon space appears to be off-map. Again, its your game, we're just discussing ideas.
IIRC, supply range is reduced to 3-4 hexes for Middle Years (see 4 Powers War), and the Minor planet between the Old Colonies and the Capital, is like 5-6 hexes from the Lyran BS (its early Years remember) at 0413.
That is of course, if that is, if the BaseStation will survive long.
With no reaction zone & only 1 hex reaction zone for scouts (would bases keep 2?), I can see a new unit coming into play, those 'listening posts' that TOS mentioned in Balance of Power. They will mostly likely just be a ground style base or SAM from SFB, but could be a new base type in F&E. They would take the same time it takes now to set up a MB, but have perhaps 1/2 the factors.
Just a thought off my head. I'm going to lurk again, now.
since only the vulcans have scouts go ahead and leave scouts and bases with a reaction zone of 2, but since the bases are weaker and can't be replaced the bases will be important, but vunerable
Opened up my F&E map... and IF the base at 0413 survives, it is 3 hexes from the minor system at 0416 which is two hexes from 0617 (Hydrax), so if supply is 3 hexes it seems doable in early years.
Is this right or am I suffering from AO withdrawal?
Well, I bow to the man who's got map handy, obviously.
COMBAT:
Looking over the combat system, it doesn't appear, to me at least, like there'll need to be many changes.
Pursuit: there should probably be some modifier to pursuit based upon relative speeds (speed 4 vs speed 3 vessels). How to best accomplish this, I don't know.
Ship values: units will generally have attack factor half that of their defense factor. Taking the Fed YCA as a baseline, I would place it as a 4-8/2-4. Combat in EY is less deadly; more battles will result in a bunch of cripples retreating with far fewer destroyed vessels. The greater difficulty of directing damage should represent this pretty well.
Base Assaults: EY bases are far weaker than their GW equivilants. They are far more valuable strategically (reaction, resupply) than in combat. A YBS would have an attack factor of about 3. The YDK is not that much better.
PDU: With a lack of GBDP (Ph-4), the PDUs will be much weaker. An attack factor of only 1 might be the best representation, though would retain the defense factor of 3.
General Ship Info: We would definately want to wait until Module Y2 before publishing this, though perhaps the "development" of Early Wars might inspire some needed EY units.
Paravians: There are undoubtedly rules for HDWs in one of the F&E Expansions. Would any of these rules be applicable to the Paravians, who, while having fixed attack/defense numbers, would have some variance in non-combat ability (transport, commando, carrier, etc.)? At this point, I have no idea how this would be represented in F&E.
Refits: Unlike F&E, refits would be very important to track since they differ so much from race to race and have such radical increases in capabilities. Luckily, the vast majority of these changes are in the Eastern Galaxy (Gorn, Rom, Paravian).
Well, that only gets Lyrans into the fray...
What can the Klingons do? Capture the 1017 SB? Homeless ships?
The closest planet to the Klingon Empire is 0718 (6 hexes from 1013/1214 BS).
Listening Post: Interesting Idea. Would it be too strange to have the following abilty:
If an enemy unit/stack moves into the same hex as a Listening Post, an adjacent friendly ship (or stack) may react to the enemy movement.
This is a different twist on things, being more of a "see and send for help" as opposed to the "detect and intercept" model. It would allow for a better concentration of defending units on the border, without expanding the reaction zones.
pursuit, given that dash speed is the same as in the later wars pursuit shoule be harder.
fast ships give you a +1 to your pursuit roll, so lets go from that
if the fastest ship in your fleet is
| speed | die modifier |
| fast (7) | +1 |
| GW (6) | +0 |
| EY (4) | -1 |
| W (3) | -3 (or should this be auto-sucess ala slow unit pursuit??) |
refits are a problem becouse if you keep to much track of them you need LOTS of counters and end up changing them around a lot
Instead of reducing the AF of all units, why not have a new Damage Index:
1 = 5%
2 = 6.25%
3 = 7.5%
4 = 8.75%
5 = 10%
6 = 11.25%
.
.
.
Same results, fewer counters to make! :-)
(I think)
[EDIT - I should say that the Damage Index produces 1/2 of the damage of GW damage]
re: PDUs
If you replace 1 Fighter Base (FGB-M) with a P-1/Heavy Weapon. P-4's replaced the same way. It should still come out to be about 2-3 COMPOT unit. For 3EPs. Not bad. But 3EP for a 1-3 unit, Peww.
And remember that PDUs now provide EW (unless there is no Early Ground Warning Station)
re: COMPAT of ships
I don't think making split factors will work that well. Here's why.
I have a force of Fed YCC+9YCA, for a whopping total of ~40 COMPOT. It will take forever to do a battle like that. And that's with 10 cruiser hulls.
It would be better to just use generic base-line for all Y-era hulls. Like all Y-CA's are "6" and go from there.