tugs and convoys do exist, they could be used as supply points

also if the supply range is 4 instead of 3 does that make things possible while still much more limited then in the GW?

Kent, the problem with useing a different damage chart is in the transition period, if you change the AF then things just work if you have a mixed fleet, but if you change the damage index how do you handle a fed CA in an otherwise EY fleet?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:10 pm: Edit

Everybody needs to remember that SFB speeds and F&E speeds aren't really all that related. There are some fairly slow SFB ships that move six in F&E (e.g., WE) and that new Gorn carrier thingie in the J2 playtest pack moves six in F&E but cannot move anything close to 30 in SFB.

By Kent Wendel (Huskerfan) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Andy, would you have to reduce the Command Rating? I don't know enough about early years...

This would make Battle Forces smaller, and thus less deadly (especially w/o fighters, stasis, maulers...)

Battles would be simpler affairs...
CC, CA, 2xCL, 2xDD, 3xFF, SC

By Kent Wendel (Huskerfan) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

David,

thanks! Plum forgot about overlap with early/GW era ships... duh!

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

SVC, when we did the warp speed chart for GPD we had it give the EY ships as F&E speed 4 with NTW being speed 3. that's what we are going from for the speeds we are talking about.

By Kent Wendel (Huskerfan) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Dumb question... what does NTW stand for again?

(blank) Tactical Warp

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Non-Tactical Warp. Speed outside combat.

If hit by a P-3 at NTW (Warp 10) a DN goes poof.

By Kent Wendel (Huskerfan) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Danke. (and OUCH!)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Scott. No Fighters, no overloads for heavy weapons. The status of Y-GWS is unknown. My guess is that they are available, but rare.

As for the 40 COMPOT - you likely won't see forces of that size in EY. I, atleast envision, 4-6 ship stacks with more of an attrition war focus (i.e. cripple a couple ships, make the stack retreat, etc.). Decisive battles will only be fought over strategic terrain/bases. The key, methinks will be causing more damage than the other guy can repair, with the reduced repair capabilities.

Kent. I believe the command ratings would remain the same. With smaller economies and smaller fleets, however, I don't envision monster fleets.

David. Looking at the map, with my limited F&E knowledge, it would seem that 4 hex supply range would work with the existing base structures.

All: perhaps we could keep the attack factors the same (i.e. usually the same as defense) as long as we made directed damage more difficult. Perhaps triple normally, x4 if formation? This would still replicate the lower crunch/more common crippling of EY, without slowing down the battles too much. Whatdya think?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 08:49 pm: Edit

the problem is that it doesn't accuratly reflect the EY ships.

they have less firepower and considerably less crunch, but they aren't _that_ much less damage resistant then GW ships. Icould see reducing their DF to 3/4 of normal while the AF needs to be reduced to 1/2 or less of normal.

the numbers above of for that class, the fed CL used to be the CA and is a 6 unit in the GW, without the refits, power upgrades and overloads having it be a 3-6 unit back when it was a CA is fairly reasonable

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:31 pm: Edit

David. I understand that, but with the "damage receiver" able to place the damage, as long as directed damage is still more difficult, it should do nothing more than speed the process, effectively combining two combat rounds into one. Or am I missing some important aspects of F&E combat?

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:36 pm: Edit

How much damage is done per round has important implications in terms of how much padding (i.e. ships the player is willing to cripple, especially those that are efficient to repair) is required on the line, especially in a fighter free enviroment.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Take for example a "killer" Klingon force of...
C8, 5xD6, BG[3xF5, 3xE4] (replace C8, D6, F5, and E4 with their Y/W counter parts).

Any damage this line receives up to 15 points is taken on the F5s, which are efficient damage absorbers (take 5 damage, only cost 1 to repair for 20% cost). The rest are less efficient (at 25%). Assuming their are F5s in reserve to replace losses, damage over 15 starts costing more economically.

Also, if the damage done is over 27 - it will start being applied to the relatively rarer cruisers. While these are the same efficiency to repair as the E4s, they can't be replaced as easily from the reserves.

A force of C8, 5xD6, 15xF5, 15xE4 can last 5 rounds without losing effectiveness if the damage is under 27 - as it goes up, the number of rounds goes down (or the compot on the line does). So - damage per round matters.

I'm not saying it's bad to do this, it just has an effect...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Hey - that's why I've got you F&E experts here I may know EY SFB, but I don't know much about F&E.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

UMM,guys?

Before we go too far down this road, do you realize what its going to mean in counters? your looking at (only guessing here, not verified yet) 150 counters for the Fed and Klingons, 100+ for the Lyrans and 80+ for each of the Kzintis, Hydrans, and Gorns. I'm not even going to guess about the Romulans since we're talking NTW qualified ships only.

Plus add the Orions (20+ maybe?) and generic counters for non ship units,(convoys, FRD's etc)

Somebody earlier suggested a different damage chart (with lower damage COMPOT results I think)That might be the way to go with the proviso that specialty ships that don't have a GW equivalent might still need to be printed. Especially since some of the Early Years ships are still active at the time of the General war (such as the Old style Federation Light Cruiser and the Romulan war birds, for example).

If Early wars could be patterned after a single counter sheet (what? 216 counters), a rule book and use the existing F&E map, it might actually be a product fast out of the gate (so to speak) and there fore be a logical successor to CO.
It would also be less expensive than a product that required 1,000+ counters.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Jeff. I doubt if it will be that bad, counter wise. There are FAR fewer variants and the total fleet sizes are smaller. Plus, personally, I'd rather have it done right than done quick.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit

If there is a way to do this with existing counters, it's lots easier to do. But given the derth of variants in EY we could easily do this with multiple copies of a single sheet. Of course, even better is to do it with one sheet (showing only Carnivons, Paravians, and a few special early units) and use existing counters.

I think you need to look at cutting battle intensity to max 3 on each side to reflect the weapons.

Speed 3 for W and 4 for Y would work, so would 4 and 5. Reaction same (but Vulcans have the only scouts). See maps in GPD and Mod-Y showing what was known and where the borders were.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:16 pm: Edit

I can't see anyway around the need for Y & W counters. The modified damage chart would be the cleanest - but can't really track that a particular battle may have "W", "Y", and regular ships in it.

How do you mark your W ships? Y ships?

For someone with more Y experience, what are relative fleet sizes like? Hundreds of ships per side? 10s of ships? How many different classes of W ships are there? Y ships?

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Some thoughts:

Compot: YCAs at Defense Value 8, no. There is a time when EY and pre-GW ships will exist in the same navy during battles (unless SVC says otherwise, all I have to go by is a playtest scenario). In that time, a YCA definitely has a lower DF than a CA. You can tell just from looking at the SSD. Example, the D6 comes out in Y122. A D6 and D4 are not going to both be DF 8. I would still base compot values off comparison to existing units.

Establishing bases: There has to be a way to build new bases. There is a scenario somewhere during a time when there are no tugs (before Mod Y, I think) that has Convoys building/becoming bases. Could take extra time to do. OK, I just noticed certain races (Federation, Klingon, Gorn) have tugs. For the Feds and Klingons, this could be how they got so much space, tugs converting convoys into bases that is faster than a convoy converting itself (or something like that). Gorns, well, they're similar to dinosaurs so maybe they were just slow. I'm going by the belief that not all races have tugs in EY.

Supply & Retrograde Range: There has to be a way to extend these past existing borders. Convoys and tugs allow extended supply, so that's easy. Now all that is needed is something that units can retrograde to similar to how GW ships can to a FRD. What makes the FRD a retrograde point that could be used in a Early Years unit to allow it to provide a retro point?

Speed: I like Speed 3 for W and 4 for Y. Romulans are 1, right? Do they get special rules somehow? Does Strategic Speed get limited as in CL12, to 24 hexes?

Command Ratings: A YDN having a CR of 10 for nothing but EY ships is fine. But what happens during the period EY and per-GW ships coexist? Does a YDN have the same command abilities as a GW-era DN? That is, could a YDN command a mixed fleet and still get 10 ships in (Example: Klingon C4 commanding 2D6, 3D4, F5Q, 2F4)? Maybe GW era ships count as 2 slots when a EY ship is in charge of the Battle Force.

Romulans need fighters for the SWH if nothing else. Maybe EY fighters have no AF, just DF (0-1 units) counting only as damage absorbers.

Don't forget the WYN. They get a YFF!

Units: Since you have to have convoys, there must be freighters (new units for Y2). Also, there is a need for new planetary bases.

Counters: I believe just one countersheet would be needed, even if defining new values for YCAs, etc. MA had 4 copies of Sheet M. One sheet the size of 2 Sheet Ms could do.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:10 am: Edit

SVC. The Battle Intensity limit is an interesting way to go. Given the lack of OL and reduced number of HWs, would a max of 2 each be more appropriate (assuming we equal out the Off/Def values on standard warships)?

Tony. In many cases, the W and Y class units are completely different hulls. At the moment, there are just the basic classes: DN, CA, CL, DD, FF. I assume that total fleet sizes are smaller than Y165, though the Roms might be an exception here.

Eric.
Compot: If compatibility with GW F&E is important, then yes, I agree. That, however, would give even more need for difference offensive and defensive factors for the ships (3-6 for a YCA, for example) to illustrate the relatively light firepower. If keeping with EY only, then perhaps SVC's idea of BIR limits might allow the factors to remain the same for Off/Def.

Bases: I'm pretty sure all races, except perhaps the Roms and Paravians will have Tugs. The former don't have a 1st Gen tug and the latter didn't really colonize/control space, they just raided (NOTE: might need some new Econ rules for this).

Supply and Retrograde: no idea. The SBs are replaced with Docks, which are kind of a cross between an FRD and a SB...kinda.

Speed. I'm leaning toward 3 and 4 myself. Roms are sublight only (F&E2K doesn't appear to have rules for movement of sub-light Rom ships, so I don't know how this is handled..) as are the early Paravians. The Strat limit of 24 seems ok - you F&Eers will have to judge this one.

Command Ratings. Based on "color text" in Module Y, the YDNs were used to command MY ships so I would assume that CR = CR.

Romulan Fighters. I was thinking 0-2 for 5 G-L fighers and 3-2 for 5 G-0 (I don't know if Fighters can get this specific). The G-Ls have lasers only and are really only good in ground assaults and shooting down Gorn missiles (Y66-Y68). The G-0's have a plas-F so are a threat, albeit a slow one. The Roms also have Sub-Light bombers (likely to be published in Mod Y2) giving them a much needed defensive boost.

Early Freighters exists; they are in one of the CLs.

Early Ground Bases are needed, but with the lack of Ph-4s, PDUs will be far weaker offensively, even if equally robust. At the moment, only the Roms have fighters/bombers.

By Robert Herneson (Rherneson) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

Steve, It's not the counters that will bulk this product, its the maps!

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 01:50 am: Edit

Eric, Andy, the roms have NTW so their strategic speed is 3 like the W class ships

I like the basic idea of limiting battle intensity, but it again rruns into the problem of the transition period.

in fact any reuse of existing counters runs into that problem, how do you keep track of which are the GW-era ships and which are the EY-era ships. the existing timeline says they served side by side for a while.

one balance point that could be used.

since the firepower balance makes ships harder to destroy we can use the fact that warp power is fairly new and greatly reduce the construction rate. the result would be that you have to fight with your fleet as is and you have to preserve it, no going in and self destroying a dozen ships to be replaced next turn, that's a year or more worth of production even for the major races

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 02:50 am: Edit

Early years war really would not be that exciting. It would be like playing the first 6 turns of the General War, but will only FFs and DDs, and not being able to move more than 4, and not having supply out past 4.......

Huh.......not much fun.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 05:45 am: Edit

Several points no-one has fleshed out

1) There will be plenty of deep stikes. However, the axis of attacks will be planets which can provide supply and retrograde points without haveing built a base. Furthermore, I see no reason why PDU build times would be much different from the general war, so they at least could be put up quickly. Also, please note that Military convoys can extend the main supply grid and be part of the main supply grid, so they can be used to bridge the gap when planets/bases are more than 3/4 hexes apart (until a base is built). I think convoys will be used much more, which is a good thing.

2) With the lower damage ratios and paucity of effective scouts, PDUs with their EW will be very powerful.

3) I note that a 1 hex reaction radius playing in an era where fleets have opmove rates of 3 is just as good as a 2 hex reaction radius playing in an era where fleet have opmove rates of 6. Better even, as you get to pin the opmoving element immediatly rather than giving them the oppotunity to run away as you react. Reducing the radius is an important concept. If there are problems (ships have reaction range of 0), the warning station concept is good.

4) Please, please can we reduce economies. I suggest keeping the count the same (i.e K get 142 base), but putting in a mutiplyer to show lower tech (?40-70%). This multiplyer goes up as the GW approaches. I also suggest that EY ships are realatively expensive - i.e. a YCA should still cost 8 (or more) despite having low factors. Let's *shorten* the game by having fewer pieces.

Other comments

I think a new set of counters are the way to go. That way, you can seamlessly integrate EY to MY to general war (and have conversion cost tables for converting ships EY->MY->GW) without having some real piece headaches. If you tried the BIR/battlechart solution, you would then get the dilemma over when to switch charts/BIR selections. At the point when this chart switch occurs, assuming you are using GW counters, what do you do? Assume all your fleet was upgraded in one fell swoop?

Not providing new counters *really* opens a whole can of worms. Remember the pickle we got into because CEDS was necessary to limit the number of required counters? And we still havn't got out of it!!!!! For those that have lots of counters already, and don't want to buy too many EY counters, some carrier escorts may have appropriate factors for more common ships. These have the advantage that pretty much all EY ships will be gone or converted by the time carriers came along.

So, Please, give me my YCA - 3-6/2-3 - factors or whatever. As previously said, there are much fewer varients and fleets were smaller, so peices should be simpler. (PS I agree Dirdam should be much harder)

Some new rules will be required to stop the effect we have in the GW - border battlestations vaporising in 2-4 turns followed by stagnation. I would like to see those EY base stations holding out a lot longer. Allowing a greater proportion of the fleet to be reserves may help here.

Lastly, I would like this (and other) expansions to stand alone once you have F&E2K. We really need to be very careful that having the lastest expansion does not require all the previous ones.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 08:39 am: Edit

Given that Sub-Light ships using NTW can move 3, I propose that W-class can move 4 and Y-class can move 5 so that they have a strategic speed advantage.

As far as keeping compatibility with GW F&E. If we keep the Off and Def factors the same and use BIR limits in EY, one option, for the GW transition would be that the Offensive Potential of all EY ships is halved once MY/GW ships are available. Its a bit Kloogey, but its pretty clean.

It is unclear yet whether PDUs will have EW; the presence of Y-GWS has not been confirmed.

I'm personally liking the 0 radius reaction for ships and 1 radius reaction for scouts (perhaps 2 for Bases, 1 for scouts) and then using Listening post to provide a 1 hex extension of ship reaction zones.

Economies: a multiplier would seem to be a good option, or a reduction in value (1 for province, 2 for minor, 3 for major, etc.)??

EY Base Stations will be destroyed far easier than GW BATS. The average Cruiser of the era can take one out, albeit in a tough fight. Even more so than in GW, the fleet will have to protect them.

re: only requiring F&E2K - I'd prefer that too.