Thanks, Peter. Didn't see your messages here until just now.
Jeff

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 03, 2014 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Heh--yeah, no problem. The "Tholians get to do something!" rule in the scenario section (which I don't remember the number of off hand) specifically indicates that if anyone attacks the Tholians either during the period where they have gone commando (22-28?) or afterwords, the Tholians fight them like normal.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 01:18 pm: Edit

The Y75 map I have shows that Paravian space is confined to provinces 4901 and 5101. Mapsheet P (in ModC6) shows the Paravian capital in 5702. Did the Paravians move their capital away from their homeworld in the alternate history(s) given in ModC6?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 08:35 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q450.12

Coming back to this game after a decade+ and re-reading the rules. In PO Special Economic Rules it talks about minor shipyards and conversion facilities. 450.13 gives where you can put the minor shipyards but makes no mention of the conversion facilities in 450.12. Do the limits in 450.13 also apply to the two types of conversion facilities?

I did search for this answer on the BBS and in the consolidated FAQ from CL 21 forwards.

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By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 10:19 pm: Edit

I saw your post under the PO file where I pointed this out. Thank you for your response. The only problem is that someone with no background would read section 450 and find no mention of the Major and Minor Conversion Facility's except where there cost is concerned. I have played this game since 1986 and after a 10 year absent and coming back to it and I read 450.13 three times and did not get that from it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 01:43 am: Edit

Matthew:

Of the three alternate histories given for the Paravians in Module C6, two of them maintain the home world as their on-map capital into the modern era, as shown on Mapsheet P and in the Paravian preview for F&E in CL48.

The third branches from the historical timeline after Paravia is destroyed, and has the surviving ships regroup at Wingatha, a world deep in the off-map region. Historically, these Paravian exiles decided, after several years' worth of discussion, to pack up and take their chances on the far side of the Void. But in a divergent timeline, they chose to stay at Wingatha and build up their forces there, in order to eventually renew their raids against the Gorns.

I'm not sure how much I'd rely on the outline maps from Module Y1, in the absence of official Alpha Octant hex maps for each year in question.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 06:38 am: Edit

Each facility listed in (450.12) is a minor shipyard. Each MSY-FF can only produce one FF or FF variant per turn. The same with the DW yard, and CW yard. The conversion facilities can only convert a ship or ships equal to their maximum conversion capacity under (450.12).

A star base on the other hand can repair 16 points worth of ships, convert a number of ships equal to its conversion capacity (usually 3 points, but 5 in the case of a capital star base) and build one FF (DW late war) in place of the ship in question being built in the capital (base game), or in place of it being built at the equivalent MSY (Q&A).

The rules for what a star base can do as listed above are not unified, they are spread out in the repair rules (420.42), production rules (431.5), and conversion rules (433.11) and (433.12) for major conversions.

You will note that the MSYs increase the total number FFs, DWs, or CWs by one per facility over and above the maximum listed for the basic F&E build schedule, or AO build schedule if you are playing with AO.

If anything needs to be modified it is that the minor conversion facilities should reference (433.11) and major conversion facility reference (433.12).

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 09:21 am: Edit

"(450.12) Class talks about the cost of the conversion facility's and that "...Major Conversion Facility can perform one major (or minor)conversion...the Minor Conversion Facility adds the ability to make such a conversion..."

So maybe in the section where it talks about the EP cost to make minor ship yards between that and the conversion facility cost does there need to be a line that goes something like this:

"Each minor shipyard can have one conversion facility added at the time of construction."

Is that how it actually works?

By John de Michele (Jdemichele) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 11:06 am: Edit

No. Major and Minor Conversion facilities are just different flavors of minor shipyards. You have five options when building minor shipyards (assuming you haven't reached your limits on any of them):

CW
DW
FF
Major Conversion
Minor Conversion

So the Lyrans, for example, can build a major conversion facility at a starbase or major planet, and then convert a second CL to a BC without having to pay the 5 EP surcharge for performing a second major conversion.

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Thanks John that was what I thought the problem is the RAW does not say it that simply or that completely.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Thanks for the reply, Gary.

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Quote:

I'm not sure how much I'd rely on the outline maps from Module Y1, in the absence of official Alpha Octant hex maps for each year in question.

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Matthew:

It could be that the Paravian area of influence shown in Module Y1 was based on incomplete data, and that a "further revision of the data tapes" clarified exactly where the former homeworld had been located.


In general, I'd be somewhat reluctant to consider anything less than a planet-and-province hex map on the F&E level to be 100% authoritative - to include "blank" hex maps which do not include that kind of data (such as the current Omega and LMC maps).

Actually, the Paravians crop up as one of the issues I'd have with the Y210 Omega map (as shown in this file). According to the timeline for the Seventh Cycle in the 2011 OMRB, a secret treaty allows Paravian raiding forces to pass through Trobrin territory in order to attack the Probr and others without fear of reprisal. But on the Y210 map, it is the Paravians, not the Trobrin, who are shown to have a direct border with the Probr.

So even though five hex maps are in print for that setting at present, it may not be wise to port them into a future province-and-planet hex map project on a one-for-one basis.


To go back to the Alpha Octant, one option could be to look at the various "sub-scenarios" set at different stages of the General War, and to note the various starting points which the belligerent factions start off at: which enemy or NZ hexes they occupy by then, what kind of bases have been built or destroyed, etc. That could allow for a series of "snapshot" maps which could help chart the ebb and flow of this conflict.

(The Y183 Omega map does something similar, since it is set in the midst of the Second Great War.)

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Great minds, Gary. I've already gone there with the project that sparked this look into the F&E maps.

Thusfar I have only been able to use the data in The Tempest and The Hurricane. The 4PW scenario doesn't modify the Y168 map (short of downgrading many of the bases), even though it starts a decade earlier than the standard F&E portrays. The rest of my material comes from the base F&E game, so no luck in getting the ISC pacification yet.

One of these days, I'll look into several actual games posted here, and try to extrapolate the most common year-by-year change in provinces. I believe I could get a reasonable facsimile of the historical war if I'm careful.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 10:40 pm: Edit

I'd definitely recommend ISC War if you are looking to see the starting lines for the Pacification, and to note the steps taken during the establishment of each cordon as the operation expanded from one end of the Octant to the other.

Bear in mind that the main Pacification scenario is only historical up to a certain point, since we don't yet have the Andromedans available to crash the party. I'm sure there'll be plenty to look forward to in that regard once Andro War is in the works...

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Matthew,

If you look at the the newer versions of late war scenarios, publishing this fall hopefully, it will give you what turn the provinces were captured on. Gale Force update has it. Maelstrom, already published should have it.

The Alpha map stabilizes fairly early. The Romulans have unexplored provinces in the south east and the ISC expansion isn't accounted for but the basic map is probably valid from 130-140 timeframe.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Richard wrote:
>>302.741 seems to be the relevant rule. Convoys are slow units. Therefore by that rule they cannot retreat before the base is destroyed (and then can perform a slow unit retreat).>>

You are correct. I had trouble finding that last sentence in 302.741, which says "slow units have to stay with the base until it is killed".

The next part which is unclear is--in a "slow unit retreat" pursuit fight, can the "pursuing" force that attacks the "slow unit retreat" units fight the slow units and then retreat from the hex (which they could not do in a regular pursuit situation)?

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 05:52 pm: Edit

In 5-8J, 8K and 8L it uses the phrase "...ship retreat..." In the referred to sections it's talking about the original retreat-er continuing the retreat. I'm not seeing anything about the attacker at that point. (302.8, 302.72, 302.73)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Retreats are 'done' (declared?) before pursuits, that way the retreating side CAN be pursued. If both sides retrteat, there is no pursuit...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 09:37 am: Edit

Ah, yes. Sequence of play. Makes things make more sense. Thanks!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:27 am: Edit

Jeff wrote:
>>503.33 states that the Tholians may not move more than two hexes outside their territory "including neutral zone hexes." Does this inclusion mean that the neutral zone hexes are included in their territory (solely for this calculation) or are they part of the two hexes distance they may enter? e.g., can the bulk of Tholian ships attack the BATS at 2517?>>

Huh. Interesting. I have always assumed that this meant that "the Tholians can only move 2 hexes outside of their territory, including going into neutral zone hexes" and not "the Tholians can only move 2 hexes outside of their territory, including neutral zone hexes they have claimed as their territory". I'm not claiming that I'm correct. Just that that is how I always read that rule.

If the Tholians can consider captured NZ hexes as their own territory, and then move 2 hexes away from their captured NZ hexes, then they can theoretically go pretty much anywhere on the map (as long as it is 2 hexes from an original NZ hex). As they can capture and claim any NZ hex and just keep going. In theory.

Using this interpretation (which really is probably correct, based on the wording), the Tholians *could* grab all the NZ hexes and planets up the NE path between the Feds and Romulans into the same space between the Gorns, and have a valid supply path all the way up to 4309 and have a whole bunch of ships patrolling this corridor.

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:35 am: Edit

And I always understood it that way too Peter. My interpretation of the intent of the rule was they are restricted to 2 hexes outside there border hex sides. I do not think the intention was the Tholians go charging up the neutral zones acting like the ISC.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:43 am: Edit

Yeah, I always thought the same thing.

My reading of the rule was always that the Tholians could have the one "detached" fleet that could theoretically go anywhere on the map, and then the rest of the ships could only go within 2 hexes of their original border, mostly limiting their attacks to the targets in 2518, 2519, and 3319, but could certainly capture the NZ hexes out to 2617, 2717, 3117, and 3217.

But then, I could certainly be wrong :-)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 01:44 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q503.33: Annihilation. In the past I've played in games where the Tholians were wiped out in a single Coalition turn. Well to be precise Tholia was captured and all Tholian bases destroyed in a single Coalition turn. The Tholian player had chosen to retain many of his ships to add to Alliance numbers. In the past, it's been noted (but not ruled on) during Q&A's regarding what happens in the event of Tholian Knockout that multiple empires could adopt the now homeless Tholian ships.

My question is this: Is this Tholian strategy forbidden by 503.33, but for the one allowed Detached Fleet under 503.331? This rule prevents the Tholians from moving more than two hexes outside their territory, but for the detached fleet. If so, then Tholians will have no choice but to fight to the death with most of their ships (but for the detached fleet), even if annihilation in a single turn is certain - as the survivors will be picked off as they remain within 2 hexes of original Tholian space. Or, is it the case that because there IS no more Tholian space that 503.33 no longer applies?

Ruling requested, thank you.

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Thomas, that's a reasonable inference, yes. However, F&E is chuck full of rules that don't make sense from an in-game perspective. It may be that, by design, most Tholians have to fight to the death as they can't leave their territory.

In a future game I do plan to pursue this strategy, so I thought it would be good to get it cleared up ahead of time.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 02:15 pm: Edit

I can't see any given species or empire fighting to the death of total extinction. Even the Paravians didn't do that against the Gorns.

While the Seltorians are intent of making the Tholians extinct they have not killed of them. The 312th Fleet comes to mind a group of survivors. There are probably other small groups like the 312th as well still out there.