The ruling above directly says that the Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point.

So no, it does not enable retrograde.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Hmmm... lemme think.

Lyran force deep inside Klingon territory, beyond their supply lines. Six hexes away is a Klingon supply point and valid retrograde point. Lyran fleet is not in supply, so they cannot retrograde to it. If the Klingons paid for an allied supply line (or the Lyrans paid for an expeditionary fleet), then the Lyrans could retrograde to the Klingon retrograde point.

Same situation here, though the Hydrans can't trace a line of supply for a traditional expeditionary fleet. Hydran fleet in range of a Kzinti retrograde point. If the Kzintis had paid for allied fleet support, the Hydrans could retrograde to them. But the Kzintis didn't.

So the question stands. Does the Hydran Supply Tug *enable retrograde*, even though it itself is not a valid retrograde point. If it does (via supplying the Hydran fleet), the Hydrans can then legally retrograde to the Kzinti base.

I would think the answer is yes.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 09:13 pm: Edit

I guess it depends on what the term "retrograde suppy point" means.

If it means "a valid retrograde point", then the tug simply is not a valid retrograde but still provides supplies.

If it means "does not provide supplies for retrograde to any location", well then, that's self explanatory. But it should have stated that, and not use a term that wasn't clear.

I still say it means the former, that the tug itself is not a retrograde point, but it's still providing supplies and therefore enables retrograde.

I'll wait for FEAR to answer.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Let's put it this way Kevin.

What do YOU think 'Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point' means?

What is FEAR trying to say if not what I said?

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 10:18 pm: Edit

I am not asking to retrograde to the Hydran tug, the KZ have opened a path to a KZ base. The question is can ships that are only in supply by the tug use retrograde movement to an allied retrograde point.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 01:21 am: Edit

Richard,

I think 'Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point' means it's not a retrograde point. But it is a supply tug -- therefore it logically is supplying the ships. And a ship in supply can retrograde. Therefore, the ships can retrograde, if they can find a retrograde point (which the supply tug is not).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 01:40 am: Edit

Kevin, that doesn't make any sense, as it refers to a 'retrograde supply point', not a 'retrograde point'.

In context, there is no way it is being mistakenly referred to as a retrograde point as supply issues are repeatedly spoke of here:

"... This would require a Hydran ship to be adjacent to a BATS blocking the path and they would have to have a valid supply point to draw from. The Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point. It is essentially an underway replenishment ship like in the current navy."

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 03:10 pm: Edit

For the sake of another perpective--I think the ruling as written is perfectly clear; if your only source of supply was the Hydran Supply TG, you can't retrograde.

That being said, that isn't what the rulebook says. Which means that this ruling (unless I too am completely misunderstanding it) is essentially an arbitrary rules change. Which is fine, if that is the intention. But as the 2K10 rulebook reads, if you are a ship that is in supply only by virtue of consuming Hydran Supply TG supplies, you are in supply, and ships that are in supply at the time of combat are enabled to retrograde. This is what the rulebook says. The ruling in question seems to contradict this.

(That, and I'll point out that "it is essentially an underway replenishment ship like in the current navy" does nothing at all to clarify the situation.)

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 04:41 pm: Edit

What ruling? Please cite reference.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Chuck, I believe the ruling referred to is the following one:

---

Quote:

From FEAR (Q&A) archive:

By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 01:38 pm:

...

A: A valid retrograde path would have to be determined to get a Hydran into Federation space. This would require a Hydran ship to be adjacent to a BATS blocking the path and they would have to have a valid supply point to draw from. The Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point. It is essentially an underway replenishment ship like in the current navy.

---

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Ruling is in here.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/27816.html?1313776772

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Hmm, since the Hydrans and Kzinti are (effectively) allied, the Hydran should be able to retrograde with the Kzinti (206.21)...

The supply tug handles the supply needed for (206.31), plus being in battle (K BTS 906) covers (206.33)...

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Hmmm... I read the ruling in the link Ryan posted, and I noticed that the discussion continued far after that with many people objecting. I didn't see a clarification/confirmation afterwards. I think the jury is still out on that.

Plus the ruling still is unclear to me anyway. We'll just have to wait on an official answer.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 12:13 am: Edit

I don't understand but it doesn't matter, as we're not playing each other anyway.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 09:00 am: Edit

>>Hmmm... I read the ruling in the link Ryan posted, and I noticed that the discussion continued far after that with many people objecting. I didn't see a clarification/confirmation afterwards. I think the jury is still out on that. >>

You have a handy pointer as to where in that giant page the ruling in question is? (Or, conversely, could cut and paste the ruling in question with context into a post here?)

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 05:33 pm: Edit

No, sorry. I'm not digging through all that again. It was about half to two thirds the way down, but with plenty more follow-up after that. Good luck.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 07:52 pm: Edit

One point worthy of note is that the original ruling dealt with Hydrans trying to retrograde towards / into Fed space in order to accomplish the Expedition. That the current situation involves retrograding to the supply point of an active ally / co-belligerent (the Kzinti) might change things.

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 10:52 pm: Edit

I believe the answer is in the first sentence. Change Federation to Kzinti, and the Hydrans can retrograde to a Kzinti retrograde point as long as there is a valid path.

From FEAR (Q&A) archive:

By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 01:38 pm:

...

A: A valid retrograde path would have to be determined to get a Hydran into Federation space. This would require a Hydran ship to be adjacent to a BATS blocking the path and they would have to have a valid supply point to draw from. The Hydran supply Tug is not a valid retrograde supply point. It is essentially an underway replenishment ship like in the current navy.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 04:34 am: Edit

The first sentence does not say anything about Hydran supply tugs.

The rest of the paragraph there says the Hydran supply tug does not qualify as a supply point for retrogrades.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 07:34 am: Edit

Bill:

The difference is that in the original scenario (ruled upon) the Hydrans were trying to retrograde to a point within territory of a power not yet at war. Skimming through the stuff which preceded that ruling, it appears to have originated with a question about whether or not the Lyrans could retrograde ships to Klingon bases on turn 1. The current discussion involves retrograde to the base of a power actually at war.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 08:18 am: Edit

The current discussion involves using a Hydran special supply tug to supply ships so that they can retrograde when they otherwise are not in supply. The ruling in question says no.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 09:43 am: Edit

Yeah, unless I'm all very confused, the issue in question is about the use of the Hydran Supply TG supplying ships, and those ships then retrograding, based upon being in supply via the Hydran Supply TG.

It is possible that the ruling above is meant to say that the Hydran Supply TG is not a valid retrograde supply point to retrograde *to*. Which it is not. As it isn't a supply point. And you can't retrograde to it. On the other hand, it is possible that it is indicating that if you are in supply only by virtue of the Supply TG, you *can't* retrograde. The more I read this, the more I'm thinking it is the former.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 05:32 pm: Edit

The special Hydran supply tug is NOT a valid Retrograde Point.

I see NO provision in the rules that specifically state that units supplied by the special Hydran tug CANNOT retrograde if they were supplied by said tug.
(It seems to me that some are reading into the original ruling...)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Ok. Thank you for the clarification.

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 06:26 am: Edit

Thanks