Actually the end of (308.21), involuntary minus points occur only from PDUs and bases killed by directed damage that leave homeless fighters/PFs that are then considered destroyed.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 23, 2014 - 12:31 am: Edit

See also 308.23.

Obviously these rules are poorly written and unclear. They have been ruled on to clarify the unclear parts.

Essentially, you can get involuntary minus points from carriers and other things.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 07:13 am: Edit

I am glad the 'Supply Tug' ruling has confirmed that it can only remain as a Supply Tug or retreat - and not change it's mission to 'M' and remain the hex.

It removes a very silly way of keeping stuff in supply - without risking the Supply Tug!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 01:04 pm: Edit

The supply tug is still not at risk; it can withdraw before combat.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Yes. But if it withdraws before combat it must leave the hex when combat is over. Hence Paul Howard's point that it can't change its mission and remain in the hex.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Sure, and that's important, but I still have never liked the unkillability of it. By unkillable, I mean the tug can choose whether to stand and fight or to retreat. Most of the time, it chooses retreat and escapes without risk.

You can disrupt it by forcing it to retreat from the hex, and maybe the hex it retreats to is not an ideal location for a supply point, but most of the time it just retreats and then resets up in the new location one hex back.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 05:29 pm: Edit

...and that has been the rule since 1986...

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, November 28, 2014 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Right. And I'm not even advocating a change (mainly because I don't have a workable alternative). I'm just saying I never liked it from the start.

Another thing I never liked from the start: Klingons. Never liked them. I always felt the Klingons should have been replaced with Ewoks. But hey, not worth fighting over, so I'll accept the Klingons and move on.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 09:44 am: Edit

what! not liking the bone domes, next you'll be telling me the hydrans are not the best race ever :P

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Oh they are! Hydrans are absolutely the best, with potatos and carrots and garlic and a little bit of lemon.

Smelly tho...

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I am sorry but really eating anther sentient being is just wrong. Now making a rug from a Kzinti are lryan's pelt is just fine Are lizard skin boots gloves jaackets from a Gorn.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 07:26 pm: Edit

From Peter Bakija:
Question on Reserve Movement:

(203.731) states: "The moving reserve fleet could have as its objective a hex which is not a Battle Hex, but which contains enemy units which are blocking a supply path [see [411.0 and (410.22)] to friendly units in combat which otherwise would be out of supply during the ensuing combat phase."

According to (410.22), if a unit was in supply at the start of the player turn, it counts as being in supply for the purposes of combat, even if it is out of supply at the time of combat.

Question:

If a ship is in supply at the start of the turn, and then is cut off from supply during the operational movement phase, and is in combat (where it will count as being in supply, but does not have a valid supply path during the reserve movement phase), can a reserve force move to open supply to that ship via (203.731)?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 07:29 pm: Edit

One condition of 203.731 is that units be out of supply during the ensuing combat phase.

However, 410.0 says that units in combat are only out of supply if they were out of supply at the start of movement phase are out of supply at the moment of combat. So in the above example it is my opinion that units are in supply and do not enable reserve movement.

It is my opinion, because whether or not that reserve movement happens, the units in question are not out of supply during the ensuing combat phase so reserve movement cannot be enabled.

YMMV.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Chuck, regarding your ruling on slow unit retreat. Did you address the case of slow units retreating without a valid retrograde point within three hexes?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:46 pm: Edit

I don't think retrograde points have any relation to retreat (supply points do).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Richard wrote:
>>It is my opinion, because whether or not that reserve movement happens, the units in question are not out of supply during the ensuing combat phase so reserve movement cannot be enabled. >>

For the sake of clarity, I think it is possible that you are correct. But I think the rule is wonky enough that it is worth getting a ruling on it.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, December 10, 2014 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Alan: Might you be thinking about the old "auto-retrograde" for auxes rule pre-F&E2KX?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 08:15 am: Edit

Richard

Supply and Reserves - Regrettably, I believe the answer will be they are considered out of supply (as things like Salvage and Drone usuage are dependent on being in supply 'at that point in time') - as it was ruled about 8 years ago or something - that you could deliberately put a Reserve Fleet out of supply and send another reserve fleet to put it back into supply (example at the time was the Klingons sending a reserve fleet to 413 - which would be 'out of supply' and sending a second Reserve fleet to a Hydran BATS - say 714 to open a supply route).

The 1st reserve to move started in supply - but the combat hex would be out of supply.

Felt very cheesy then - but I don't think it was ever made illegal.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 10:12 am: Edit

Yeah, my feelings are the same as Paul--there are numerous rules already where the fact that you were in supply at the start of the turn meaning you count as in supply for combat (and don't suffer half compot, etc.) doesn't mean you count as in supply for the rule in question:

-Drone Bombardment. To drone bombard, a ship needs to be in supply. As far as I know, if a drone bombardment ship was in supply at the start of the turn, but it then ends up out of supply by the time combat starts, it can't drone bombard. As even though it counts as in supply (for compot puposes by virtue of having been in supply at the start of the turn) it doesn't count as being is supply for the purposes of being able to drone bombard.

-Retrograding. To retrograde, a ship either needs to be in supply at the start of the retrograde phase, or have been in supply at the start of combat. If that ship was in supply at the start of the turn, it counts as being in supply for combat, including the start of combat. But as far as I know, if a ship was in supply at the start of the turn, but ends up out of supply at the start of combat, it still counts as being in supply for combat and compot purposes, but does *not* count as being in supply for the purposes of retrograding.

-Salvage. A ship needs to be in supply to provide salvage. As far as I am aware, if a ship is in supply at the start of the turn, and then gets cut off from supply before combat starts, it still counts as being in supply for combat purposes and compot, but does *not* count as being in suply for salvage purposes.

These rules all seem analogous to the reserve movement rule. Especially given that if a ship that was in supply at the start of the turn counts as being in supply for reserve movement purposes even though it is currently cut off from supply, the rule in question (203.731) seems *incredibly* corner case and unlikely to come up.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Chuck - probably and shame on me for not referencing the rules, but I am concerned your ruling may create salvage for automatically destroyed auxes. If this is not the case ignore.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Slow Units do not have a "retreat or die" clause anymore. They retreat just like everything else that can retreat, just more slowly.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 12:49 pm: Edit

References:

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Quote:

(203.731) The moving reserve fleet could have as its objective a hex which is not a Battle Hex, but which contains enemy units which are blocking a supply path [see [411.0 and (410.22)] to friendly units in combat which otherwise would be out of supply during the ensuing combat phase.

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Quote:

(410.22) COMBAT: Supply status for purposes of combat is evaluated for both players at the start of each Player Turn and at the instant of combat. Only if the unit is out of supply at the start of a Player Turn AND during combat on that Player Turn is it considered out of supply for that Combat Phase.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 02:55 pm: Edit

203.371 the last clause is very important where it says 'which otherwise would be out of supply during the ensuing combat phase'.

In the case of the units passing the supply check at the beginning of movement, it does not matter if they pass the supply check at the moment of combat, as they are not considered out of supply.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 03:41 pm: Edit

>>In the case of the units passing the supply check at the beginning of movement, it does not matter if they pass the supply check at the moment of combat, as they are not considered out of supply.>>

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But if this is the case, then why are ships in the same instance considered *out* of supply for purposes of Retrograde (when if they are in supply at the instance of combat, they count as being in supply for Retrograding. Unless they are in supply by virtue of having been in supply at the start of the turn, in which case they *don't* count as being in supply. Unless I totally misunderstand how retrograding works…)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, December 11, 2014 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Because the retrograde rule is more specific and overrides the more general rule, I guess. Imo.