David Lang: Thank you, I stand corrected!

sounds like sub light wars might be an interesting game, but really, how popular would it be with only "local" involvement. I mean gorn vs rom, fed verses rom, no contact betweed Fed & Gorn, Gorn vs Paravians.

Was the situation the same on the other end of the F&E map?Kzinti vs Carnivon? Kzinti Vs Lyran until the Carnivons separated the Feline Races? Kzinti Vs Klingon, Klingon vs Lyran, Klingon VS Hydran, Hydran Vs Lyran?

Unless there was some sort of goal that might allow a successful sublight player additional F&E hexes instead of spending 60-120 years just to end up at the historical at start positions for the GW?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Thoughts on EY-BIR - instead of using the GW 1-4, why not use 0-3 [or 0-2], this drops the average BIR down to 3 [2] while still having a 'wide' range of choices.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:03 pm: Edit

David Lang: Thank you, I stand corrected!

sounds like sub light wars might be an interesting game, but really, how popular would it be with only "local" involvement. I mean gorn vs rom, fed verses rom, no contact betweed Fed & Gorn, Gorn vs Paravians.

Was the situation the same on the other end of the F&E map?Kzinti vs Carnivon? Kzinti Vs Lyran until the Carnivons separated the Feline Races? Kzinti Vs Klingon, Klingon vs Lyran, Klingon VS Hydran, Hydran Vs Lyran?

Unless there was some sort of goal that might allow a successful sublight player additional F&E hexes instead of spending 60-120 years just to end up at the historical at start positions for the GW?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Jeff. Early Wars might get some of the EY SFB players into F&E. It also has the benefit of being able to play entire wars in a single night, as opposed to taking a weekend for the GW. The dynamic of the game would be far different too, with borders and territory changing far more rapidly (and bidirectional) than in GW F&E.

Sub-Light Wars being added in would be a neat idea; I am just not sure if we're ready for that on the SFB side.(??)

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 06:36 am: Edit

Jeff, I don't think you understood me, the GW era ships move 6 hexes per 6 months, the 'sublight' romulan ships move 3 hexes per 6 months.

the sublight ships drop below SFB speed 1 to fight

the tactical warp ships drop below SFB speed 32 to fight

when moving to and from the battle area they are about the same speed

One big advantage of the EY era is that there were so many seperate wars. it's easy to come up with lots of different small senerios without the problems of making a multi-part senerio that can be played in parts or togeater like we do for the GW

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 06:10 pm: Edit

David:I dont think you understood me. So what if Sublight ships have a different speed than EY era? the Game scale of 500 parsecs per hex remains constant. The point is even if Sublight ships are slower that all following classes of ships they still can be used to simulate a strategic campaign using the F&E game system.

As a matter of fact, if I recall correctly Sublight Wars for SFB are on long term Hiatus (suspended and not actively being developed.)

my suggestion was merely that it could be integrated into the F&E series of games without first being developed for SFB.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Jeff, sublight ships have been defined as speed 3 which is the speed of all ships in the early part of the EY era, later in the EY era ships speed up slightly to speed 4 then they make a jump to speed 6 for the GW era and finally to speed 7 for fast/X ships (no mention has been made of fast early ships at speed 5, but they have so few weapons it would be hard to strip them down enough to gain the extra speed)

so integrating them into F&E is a matter of simply defining the SIT data for the ships and publishing them, they then can just drop in

so there are no 60-120 year trips, they are all fairly fast (although slower then they are in later times)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:40 pm: Edit

NO, No, NO! I think you have definitely missunderstood me. Sorry for not making it more clear. I was not refering to a 60 to 120 year voyage...but rather a time period of 60 to 120 years of campaigns where no matter what the results of the wars are, the end with the historical starting point of the General war fall year 168.

In other wards, if the Romulan star empire were to win every battle, kill every ship that comes within phaser or plasma range, the net result is the historical borders found at the beginning of the General war? Unless there is a benefit in fighting the battles to acquire more territory, why go throgh the exercise of Gorn wars 1 to 3, Kzinti Lyran wars 1 to whatever and all the other wars that happened prior to Fall year 168.

I could see a gaming group play early wars to set up a historical what if result for F&E in the general war period...say the Gorns went all out against the Romulans instead of respecting the boundary? could they have occupied the Romulan capital hexes? Where would the surviving Romulans retreat to? somewhere close to Tholia? What would that have done to the Romulan economy? would they even be able to build the third generation ships? would the Klingons even have bothered selling ships to them in the first place?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

Ok, I was misunderstanding you.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 03:07 pm: Edit

David Lang: No problem (grin).

The issue really boils down to getting new players to SFB and F&E (and sublight wars, ef ever published) interested in the "series" of wars and the ultimate effects on the developing galaxy as tchnology, ships and the various races economic base changes from the sublight wars time thru the Xork wars and beyond.

Historically (this is going back to the Real world years 1400 AD to 1815AD) Nations that were defeated military were able to get various possessions back in negotiations (for one example England captured the Philipine Islands from Spain and held it for 2 years until it was traded back in the peace treaty settling the war) there are many other examples.

What if there were a "rule" to modify the results of each war in SFB/F&E/EarlyWars/GW that allowed the "loser" of theprevious war to gain back the "lost" territory in exchange for an economic "bonus" for the winner?

There was an old game called imperium put out by GDW (I think) that built on the Traveler universe war between Earth and the Imperium empire over 100 year time period that used this kind of rule to equalize the sides between vars.

This way the winner gains a benefit but the loser has some incentive to keep coming back, as well as a type of "insurance" that preserves game balance and the "historic" timeline established by ADB in the game series.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit

A pitty SVC won't aprove a new map, but I bet it would make the game to expensive. I would like new counters for all EY ships though. Of course I'd also like to se a full set of MY counters eventually as well, but I'm silly enough to want to play the entire history from Y60 all the way to Y220.

Suggestion for speed/range of ships for each era;
W=3, EY=4, MY=5, GW=6, XT=7. That shows a progression of longer cruising distances for ships in each time period. What does everybody think?

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

As a basis for discussion, can someone give a general guide for what years were what time periods?

For example:
W: Y60-Y100
Y: Y90-Y130
M: Y120-Y170
GW: Y160-Y200
X: Y180-...

Thanks in advance...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Daniel: That's not the case. The pity is you won't write the $4,000 check to print it.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Tony, you've got the rough dates right, and there is some bleed over from era to era. Some benchmarks:

Y62: Feds launch first tac-warp refited ship (start of W-era).

Y78: Klingons launch the D4, the first ship designed with tac-warp (start of Y-series ships).

Y126: Feds launch Constellation-class CA (start of modern ships, partic the MY period).

Y134-135: Hydrans deploy their MY/GW era ships (Ranger, Lancer, Hunter) and the first warp fighters. This is the very end of the Y-era.

Middle Years is basically the period from Y126 through the Four Powers War. The 4PW presented the tech advances (Kzinti fighters, mobile bases and "rapid" base upgrades) that would make the GW possible.

GW starts Y168, though may be considered about Y165 on (when was the first CW built?).

X-ships first deployed in Y180, though the "late war" peroid my be considered as Y178 onwards (PFs, HDWs, DNHs, CVEGs and FEGs, and other technical advancements), leading through the ISC Pacification and Andro Invasion.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

So, effectively, "M" ships & "GW" ships are the same (plus/minus refits) - is that basically right?

IE, we wouldn't need seperate counters for M vs GW (maybe just a rule that says in Y16x ships get 6 supply range, before that, 4 hex range).

Also, any idea when W ships were pretty much phased out/destroyed? What about Y ships?

T

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Yes, for the most part MY and GW ships are the same. Basically, MY is the pre-refit ships, and command cruisers are much rarer. MY also features DNEs as opposed to the "basic" DN designs. You will need some counters for the MY era support ships, which tended to be based on smaller hulls than their GW equivalents (see also, no CWs/DWs).

A couple of CapLogs have featured MY era Klingons and Kzintis (a couple of the later, such as the CLD and CLE, are in AO).

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:27 pm: Edit

As for when older-generation ships gotphased out, that's a bit trickier. While series production would end shortly after the newer generation was introduced, the ships themselves stayed in service. SVC may very well correct me on this, but from what I understand, they didn't really get phased out in one lump. Basically ships were scrapped as they wore out, but continued to serves as interior patrols and such till they did. And many Y-ships got partial My/GW tech upgrades as National guards.

The Klingons have the clearest cutoff dates, losing most of the W-fleet to the Tholian arrival (Y83?), and most of their Y-fleet to the Hydran Reconquest (Y135).

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:30 pm: Edit

re: speed discussion.

the speeds have been published (in GPD)

era	speed
'sublight	3
W	3
Y	4
MY	6
GW	6
Fast GW	7
X1	7

the only way to get a speed 5 ship would be to have a early fast ship

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

re: end dates for the early ships

remember that the fed CL is a sublight design, heavily refitted

as are many/most of the rom 1st gen ships

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:47 pm: Edit

There might be a few EY/MY ships that might qualify for speed 5. The pre-refit Kzinti and Hydrans come to mind (speed 24-27), as does the Kzinti YFF (speed 28?). While SFB speed doesn't equate exactly, it does provide some possibilities, especially considering these two races were "sub-par" during the period.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 02:51 pm: Edit

DGK:

See the "Return of the Carnivon" thread and (I think) earlier in this thread. SVC didn't rule out all parts of the possible new map question. I think (If I am stating it correctly) that there is the possibility that a partial map might be issued to portray the Carnivons retreat off the F&E Map that would include the off map provinces that the carnivons occupied. (and after the Carnivons become extint, the "temporary" map would revert back to the standard F&E map for all other uses.)

The real issue (I think) is what direction the development of the various era's should take.

The suggestion for using the MY counters as the GW years is to minimize the number of new counters that would need to be issued while still allowing the majority of F&E players participate in Early years wars...apparently (and you would have to talk to SVC to confirm or disqualify this point) the counter sheets increase the cost of producing F&E games significantly.

I personally am hoping that a single counter sheet is all that needs to be added to a rule booklet and the existing maps to get a Early Years F&E module out in less time than a sister game to F&E with 1,000+ counters (or more!)

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Andy, in that case don't you need to slow down the falcon mauler as it is short of warp during the GW?

strategic speed doesn't require the same power that tactical speed does. you can move at full strategic speed if you have a single warp box left and since the NTW is powered by impulse engines it may even be that even during the GW speed 6 is available from impulse engines, in either case the number of warp boxes on a SSD doesn't affect the F&E speed of the ship, only the type of engines do

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Andy: What David said. He's my chief warp engineer and he would know.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I was under the impression one needed 10 warp (or half of a ship's initial warp) to hit strategic speeds--this being what is necessary to disengage by acceleration. No, wait. That's what's needed for dash speeds I think.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 05:17 am: Edit

How can a sublight ship move 3 hexes strategically when an GW warp ship moves 6? Particularly when the F&E scale would imply it would take hundreds of years to get from one side of the map to the other at sublight speeds...

Are we implying that "sublight" simply means warp-capable, but not on a tactical scale???? Because otherwise we a pushing it for a sublight ship to go even half a F&E hex per turn.