*Just doing some research on rebellions. Does anyone know if the ruling below was overturned? I assume it was not but thought to check here in case anyone knows something I missed. Thank you.


Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS: F&E Q&A: Archive 2010

By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Q: Regarding the rule about planets rebelling...

-does a planet in rebellion still serve as a supply and retrograde point for the conquering side?

A: This is a tough one. (537.13) is clear on what happens on the planet during a rebellion, but is not clear on the strategic ramifications of a rebellion. Since, in open rebellion, everything is disrupted I am going to rule that this planet cannot be used as either a supply point or a retrograde point until the rebellion is suppressed.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 - 10:18 pm: Edit

FEDS has no issues with this ruling by FEAR.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 03:53 pm: Edit

In my game, the Hydran capital just fell, and since it was cut off from the off-map area, I'm looking for ways--other than Orion smuggling--to save my treasury. We thought that the treasury--most of which came from salvage of ships destroyed in the capital assault--could be loaded onto tugs, but according to 442.323, it looks like it is not legal:

{442.323} EPs can be loaded onto carrying units at the start of the Operational Movement or Strategic Movement Steps. EPs are unloaded at a valid strategic movement node on the main grid or any partial grid at the end of the Strategic
Movement Step.

So, can tugs receive emergency EPs if they had nowhere else to go?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, March 12, 2015 - 04:03 pm: Edit

No. See (511.352) That which is not evacuated using Orion Pirate smuggling (410.34) is lost. No one gets credit for EPs lost in this manner so the enemy doesn't get it either.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:44 pm: Edit

(Moving this to discussions)

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 02:11 pm: Edit


In my game, the Hydran capital just fell, and since it was cut off from the off-map area, I'm looking for ways--other than Orion smuggling--to save my treasury. Here is the relevant rule:

(511.352) If the capital has a supply path to another base or planet at the instant before it falls, the Treasury (430.1) can be evacuated to that base or planet; treat this as a transfer to a partial grid (435.24). If not, some of it can be evacuated by Orion smuggling (410.34) and the rest is lost; it cannot be captured. Any deficit (430.63) is evacuated automatically.

Ted thought that the treasury--most of which came from salvage of ships destroyed in the capital assault--could be loaded onto tugs, but according to 442.323, it looks like it is not legal:

{442.323} EPs can be loaded onto carrying units at the start of the Operational Movement or Strategic Movement Steps. EPs are unloaded at a valid strategic movement node on the main grid or any partial grid at the end of the Strategic
Movement Step.

So, can tugs receive emergency EPs if they had nowhere else to go? Ted and I thought it was worth getting a ruling.


By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:30 pm: Edit


Nope, salvage goes to the nearest supply point (which could be a supply tug?) in the grid (if this is in the main grid, it ends up at the capital [439.11]), if in a partial grid [439.12]it's a supply point in the partial). If there is no grid, then salvage is lost (no way to get the leftovers to some central point)...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 13, 2015 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Note that a supply tug in and of itself does not make a partial supply grid - you'd have to have an actual planet or base that can store EPs to collect salvage this way.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Sunday, March 15, 2015 - 02:51 am: Edit

I do not think it's totally accurate to say salvage goes to the nearest supply point. If you had a situation where it could go to either a Partial Grid or the Main Grid, you can send the salvage to either, it's the player's choice. And if it's a partial grid, the rules say it goes to the "central" point in that grid. Which is a bizarre way to say (I think) that the salvage would stay in that grid until the last supply point was destroyed (or it was transferred out or spent). It would not create a satellite stockpile.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 06:49 am: Edit

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Quote:

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 12:22 am: Edit

Q:In particular, can the treasury be loaded onto tugs at the point that the capital

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By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 06:54 am: Edit

Mission B in the above should be Mission A for the Battle Tug example.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 02:02 pm: Edit

But what if the tug was assigned the mission and was just standing by waiting for the capital to fall?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Chuck, just to make sure I'm clear on your ruling - if you assign a tug to EP transport during the economic phase of A6, but then keep that tug empty, then if the capital falls on C7 said tug can pick up EPs from the treasury the instant before it falls? Or do you have to transfer those EPs on A6?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 07:27 pm: Edit

If so, I would think that the tug could pick up EPs if it had any capacity left - the tug would not have to be completely empty. Let me know if I am wrong.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 09:57 pm: Edit

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Quote:

(509.32) DESIGNATION: All tugs and LTTs‡ may (but do not have to be) assigned missions during the Assign Missions Phase of Economics (1G) or Production (2B7). Certain specific missions can also be assigned at other points in the Sequence of Play as noted below. Many of these missions are in expansions, and are marked with the double-dagger ‡ which marks expansion rules.

Once a mission is selected it cannot be changed until the owner’s next turn. At the start of the turn, all tug assignments continue unless the player gives a tug or LTT a new assignment. “Unassigned” (509.1-M) is a valid assignment and is the only one that can be changed during the turn."

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 01:56 am: Edit

Thank you.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 12:41 am: Edit

I am confused about the survey ships that the Federation starts with in turn 7. At that time, they have the following survey ships:

5GSC (currently off map)

2CLS (currently off map)

3CVL (currently on map)

1COV (currently on map)

Total survey ships = 11 (of which 7 are currently off map, and 4 on map)

If I leave all survey ships where they currently are, the Federation have 7 survey ships available for surveying, and the 3CVL and 1COV are available for combat on map. Is this correct?

Furthermore, 542.26 reads, "The Federation has "credit" for the infrastructure costs of the four survey ships sent off the map, but must pay for the three extra ships above that limit." This sounds to me like Federation only has 4 survey slots paid for to begin. Does this mean that even though the Federation currently has 7 survey ships off map, only 4 of them can perform surveys until extra survey slots are purchased?

Part of my confusion might be from the part of the rule that reads "of the four survey ships sent off the map." Which 4 survey ships are we talking about? As I listed above, there are already 7 survey ships off the map.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 01:14 am: Edit

The four slots are for the 3CVL and COV currently on the map. You still have the four slots they used when they were surveying. This is in addition to the seven slots for the seven survey ships currently offmap.

If you send survey ships offmap, you can use those four slots. After you do, you can buy up to three more by the appropriate rules.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 10:17 am: Edit

So if I keep the 3CVL and COV on map for use in combat, will they still be rolling 7 dice for survey? And if they send them back off map without doing anything else, will the Federation then immediately be rolling 11 dice for survey without doing anything else? And if they buy the allowed 3 more slots and build 3 more survey ships (sending them off map also), they'll have a total of 14 dice?

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 10:19 am: Edit

Yes, yes and yes.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 10:26 am: Edit

Ken, see reply in General Discussion thread.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 10:58 am: Edit

Without reading the rules, I have the impression that the limit is sending one survey ship offmap per year. Or is that just the limit on creating new survey ships?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:11 am: Edit

No, no, and no. The Federation cannot support 11 survey ships doing survey duty. No. If you keep the 3CVL and COV on map they are NOT doing survey duty. No. There is no way the Federation can have 14 dice.

The confusion here is because Strategic Operations changed how survey ships are done, and left confusion between 542 and 503.

542.26 says you can send up to 3 additional survey ships to off-map duty. Additional to what? Go back to the original F&E2010 rules under 503, which says the Fed starts with 7. It also says the Fed has "credit" for infrastructure costs for 4 survey ships brought on-map. This is just to reconcile the original F&E2010 rules, but the problem here is that SO still left the 7 survey cruisers offmap, not 6. That's why it looks like there is 11.

Anyway, 505.30 says the Federation has 7 survey ships in operation. 542.26 says you can send up to 3 additional survey ships to off map duty. 7+3=10. Ten is the Fed limit for survey.

In F&E2010, 505.31 says the Fed can increase its survey ships by 3 more to 10 by sending the on map CVLs off map. Thus, again, Ten is the limit on Fed survey.

But now we see Ken's confusion. From the OOB the 2nd exploration fleet is 3*CVL, 1*COV, plus 7 existing survey ships offmap (which are 2*CLS and 4*GSC). Additionally, 542.26 says the Fed has credit for 4 sent offmap, but there are already 7 offmap, which makes it look like there are 11 survey slots.

Thus, it appears the rules are in conflict with each other. Is it 10 survey slots or 11?

I believe the limit on performing survey is still 10 per 505.31. This is the explicit black letter rule. I believe SO has an error - either there are 6 original survey ships and the 7th was the COV, or one of the 11 ships MUST operate on-map, as the limit is 10. If SO had intended to increase the Federation's limit to 11, then it should have said so (but it doesn't).

As for the idea of on-map survey ships still managing to do survey to get to 14, I see where that is coming from. 542,26 says you can send three more ships offmap. Well, if you have 11 and you add 3 that's 14.

But that violates 505.31, which is not superseded by 542. So the limit is still 10. Any ambiguities created by the OOB and the rules in 542 are superseded by the black letter limits of 503.31.

I definitely see Ken's confusion now that I dig into this issue. However, I believe the limit is still 10 survey ships. I think it would be unbalancing to allow the Federation to get to 14. They were meant to have 10, and 10 should remain the limit.

I also think this issue is ripe for an official ruling by FEDS.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:12 am: Edit

Richard, we're talking about the maximum limits on Fed survey, not how long it takes to get to that limit. But, yes, the limit is purchasing one survey ship per year.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:12 am: Edit

The limit is one "new" survey ship per year by any means. You can send them off map any time you want. See (542.11).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 11:23 am: Edit

Ted, the Federation has paid for 11 Survey Slots. 2 CLS, 5 GSC, 3 CVL, and 1 COV. The Federation could build 4 more GSCs at the rate of one per year under (542.11) and send them off map for survey duty without having to pay the 3 EPs for the infrastructure required to support them because they would use the existing support that was originally for the 3 CVLs and 1 COV. The 12th to the 14th Survey ships must also pay the 3 EP infrastructure surcharge under (542.26).

Allowing the Feds to have 14 rolls is not unbalancing. The trade off is giving up at least 3 and as many as 7 CAs to get to 14 survey ships in the first place.

(542.0) expands and replaces (505.0) with regards to the maximum number of survey shipos.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 12:31 pm: Edit

542.26 says the Feds have credit for the 4 survey cruisers sent off the map but must pay for 3 more.

I think the word 'off' is supposed to be 'on'.

The part saying must pay for 3 more seems to me to indicate that the first four are free (ie before the Feds brought 4 survey ships on map they had 11 ships doing survey, which makes sense as why else would you have 11 survey ships).

Anyway after looking at the rules, it is my belief that the Federation (in SO) has eleven survey slots and can buy three more.