Ted, et al.

Please read (700.2) on page 29 of SO rulebook and then let me know if you want to withdraw the question.

FEDS

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Re: Q542 (Fed survey ships): I'll note that (521.63) is also relevant, as it defines the use of the Federation COV.

However, it's not a tightly written rule: "It can be sent off map for use as a survey ship in addition to the survey ships already there," and doesn't state whether this would also be in addition to, or instead of one of, the CVLs that can also be sent to survey duty.

I'd say the sense of the rule is 'in addition to', but it is poorly phrased, and fodder for being argued over, so I recommend the Warbook be more explicit in this rule, one way or another.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 03:10 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

FROM F&E2KX:
(505.30) NUMBER: The number of survey ships in operation for
each empire is:
Federation .............. 7
Klingons ................. 2 (operate from Lyran territory)
Romulans ............... 0
Kzintis .................... 3
Gorns ..................... 2
Tholians ................. 0
Hydrans.................. 3
Lyrans .................... 3
ISC‡ ....................... 8
Scouts cannot be used as survey cruisers; exception
(505.32).

(505.31) FEDERATION: The Federation can increase its survey
ships by up to three more by sending some or all of the three
CVLs (which represent converted survey ships) to the Federation
off-map area. They take their fighters with them.

FROM CO:
(521.63) FEDERATION COV: This ship is an addition to
the Order of Battle. The Federation can only have one of
them at any given time. It has EW capabilities listed on the
SIT. It can be sent off map for use as a survey ship in
addition to the survey ships already there.

FROM SO:
(700.2) UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS

2nd FLEET: (Off Map): one APT. The seven existing survey ships
are five GSCs and two CLSs. (This does not include
the three CVLs and one COV which the Federation historical
brings on map. The Federation could chose to
leave some of those four ships and take some of the
other seven instead, but there is no benefit to doing so.)

(542.26) Cost & Limits: Each race can send up to three additional
survey ships to off-map survey duty. The deployment of
each additional ship costs three EPs to account for the support
infrastructure (survey bases, survey freighters, other support elements)
needed to enable it to operate. (Infrastructure "slots"
and survey ships are tracked separately, although every survey
ship must have an infrastructure slot. If a survey ship is moved
onto the map, its logistics slot remains available for use by another
survey ship sent off map later.) Any race can build additional
survey cruisers for use on the map; these do not count
against the "survey limit" above. The Federation has "credit" for
the infrastructure costs of the four survey ships sent off the map,
but must pay for the three extra ships above that limit.

---

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Chuck,

I do not withdraw the question, because the rules are not 100% clear IMO, and also because the result of the question will be used in the future SO update. I agree it's entirely reasonable that the Feds can have up to 14 survey ships based on what you're saying. However, that should be made explicit for the upcoming SO update so players know that if they are using SO then the Feds automatically have 11 survey slots and can increase that to 14 over time.

Just take what you copied above, put in the answer that the upper limit is 14, and you're done.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Unless overruled by ADB the following clarification of the rules are as follows (see above rule references from 3:10pm today):

A. If using just the F&E2KX rules the Federation starts with seven ships assigned to off-map survey duty and can increase this number up to ten total ship by using 1-3 of the CVLs to augment the original seven survey already there.

B. If using CO rules the maximum number of ships allowed to conduct off-map survey is increase to eleven but only the use of the 3xCVL --AND-- the COV to reach that number.

C. If using SO the Federation starts with eleven paid survey slots and may, by rule, purchase three additional slot for a maximum number of 14 off-map survey slots. Additional survey units may be produced to fill these slots as desired by the Federation player and as allowed by the rules.

D. Federation survey ships available at start (turn #7) are: 5xGSC, 2xCLS, 3xCVL, and COV (this assumes all F&E modules in use).

FEDS SENDS

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Thank you Chuck, that is an excellent clarification of the rules.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 26, 2015 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Chuck wrote:
>>What you are describing is an UNdevastated planet with an RDF. Rule (508.162) specifically states that RDFs do not block pursuit. The important point to remember here is that BASES (including PDU/PGBs) left behind block pursuit; planets alone do not block pursuit. So unless overruled by ADB any planetary hex (regardless of the associated planets devastated status therein) without a base (not RDF) cannot block pursuit.>>

The only sticking point with this ruling (which is a totally reasonable one) is that (302.721) specifically points out that *devastated* planets without PDUs don't block pursuit. Implying that *undevastated* planets without PDUs *do* block pursuit:

(302.721) "Devastated planets without PDUs (even those with an RDF) do not block pursuit."

The rules on RDFs are very clear that they do not block pursuit. And devastated planets with just RDFs don't block pursuit. But the rules *seem* to indicate that *undevastated* planets (without PDUs) could create a special situation that allows them to block pursuit.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, March 26, 2015 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Technically, the rule is that the planet must have some base (PDU) still in existance to block pursuit...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 12:35 am: Edit

Peter:

The enabling rule is (302.741) where "Bases" are the ONLY units that are specified as being able to block pursuit.

ONLY hexes containing a base still controlled by the retreating player therein can block pursuit; these bases include PGB, PDU, MB, OPB, BS, BTS, PS (and upgrades), STB, SB, SFB, Colony Bases, and variants thereof. A planet is NOT a base.

---

Quote:

(302.741) BASES: If the unit left behind is a base station‡, battle
station, mobile base, PDU, or starbase (or other bases and colonies
in future products), a retreating force is not able to take these
units with them. Such a unit, left behind after ships retreat from a
Battle Hex, remains functional and forces the players to return to
Step 2 of the Combat Procedure (302.2) above. Ships leaving
these units behind cannot be pursued...

---

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 01:33 am: Edit

Also I assume the pacification version of SB and whatnot. (PS already listed).

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 02:12 am: Edit

I did say: "...and variants thereof."

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Chuck,

If the Romulans start with 0 survey ships in operation off-map, but (SO adds?) 3 survey ships on the map with the plan to eventually go off the map, are those three ships the three extra from SO? In other words, they cannot build any more for off-map duty (for a maximum of three), though more newly built ships could do on-map duty?

Jeff

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 03:06 pm: Edit

What did your research of the rules reveal?

Players: Seriously, FEAR and FEDS needs everyone to demonstrate their research efforts and at least give us some sort of starting reference. We truly want to be of assistance but knowing that one has done his homework before asking can sometimes reveal the answer without further assistance. If one cannot find an answer then please tell us where you have looked so we know where to begin looking into the matter.

Thanks
FEDS

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Chuck,

My research seemed to show that the answer is three maximum off map, using the "three extra" rule.

Jeff

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 03:13 pm: Edit

542.25 says the Romulans have three survey ships they can send offmap.

542.26 says that races can send three additional ships offmap.

I would assume the listing of Romulans as '0' reflects their turn one status and is increased to '3' later, and they can send three more at whatever point.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, March 27, 2015 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Relevant Rules to Jeff T's question:

(505.32) ROMULAN: The Romulans can increase their number of survey ships to a maximum of three by sending SPC scout cruisers off the map through 6119. This can only be done after all of the on-map provinces are activated; see (603.15).

(704.0) Home Fleet: The 3 SPCs are modified to 1 SPS and 2 PEs when playing with SO and using the OOB dated 1 Jun 2009.

(542.25) Modifies the exit hex from 6119 to 6118 and 6119 under (505.32).

(542.26) Limits all empires to an additional 3 survey ships that can be surveying the off map area normally or through high risk survey (542.27).

There is no limitation on the number of survey ships a given empire could build other than the limit of one per year by any means under (542.11).


Conclusion: The Romulans could increase the number of survey ships used to explore the off map area from 3 to 6 under the above listed rules.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:18 am: Edit

An ambiguity lies in rule (542.26). It states that "each race can send up to three additional survey ships to off-map survey duty." But it does not identify what the phrase "additional" modifies. If it modifies the list in rule (505.30), then the "additional" ships for the Romulans are the SPS and 2xPE. The problem is complicated by the fact that (542.26) refers specifically to "off-map survey duty," while the list in (505.30) refers to "ships in operation." Thus, one could interpret this to mean that the Romulans have 0 ships in operation (because they have no access to offmap areas), but once they access their off-map area, then the "three more" rule applies to the initial 0, meaning that they can send three more than 0, i.e., the original SPS and 2xPE.

However, having said all of that, the placement of rule (542.26) coming, as it does, immediately after (542.22-25) which seem to designate the special case starting operational survey ship limits for the Klingons, Lyrans, and Romulans, strongly suggests that the "three additional survey ships" references those very rules as modifying the list in (505.30). But then, when you look closely at that list, you see that the Klingon two starting ships are already listed there, while the Romulans list 0.

So, that brings us back to rule (505.30) and its peculiar language: "the number of survey ships in operation." This phrase doesn't imply where they are operating, on map, off map, or just sitting somewhere. If seems that it should refer to off-map operations, because that would explain how the Romulans have 0, and the Klingons have 2, except that even this is problematic, because the 2 Klingon ships are likewise not off-map at game start! So, if (505.30) sets an overall maximum of ships able to operate off-map (regardless of whether they are there or not--which is what the Klingon case seems to suggest), then the maximum allowable survey ships operable off-map for the Romulans is 0. Then rule (542.26) increases that from 0 to 3.

I think, unfortunately, that this is a valid interpretation of the rules, given the language and the fact of game expansions. However, I strongly suspect that the spirit of the rules here is to say that the Romulans start with 0 survey ships in F&E2K, but played with expansions, they start with 3 survey ships which are not currently off-map. Then with the (542.26) "addition", they can add three more survey ships to off-map duty for a maximum total of six. That's the way I want it to read, at any rate. And it seems that Thomas and Richard believe that this is the way it does read. But I'm not so sure that this issue is free from ambiguity. Hence my question for FEDS clarification.

Jeff

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:41 am: Edit

Jeff, Like the Klingons, the Romulans have survey ships on the map at the start of the game. Those survey ships are the 3xSPCs in an F&E2KX game. See (704.0)in the Home Fleet PWC. The 3xSPC here are the survey ships in question for the basic game. Due to counter space during the original countersheet design many units were subsumed into the game. Survey Cruisers being some of the easiest to skip over as they are mainly for record keeping purposes only and done by paper and pencil. SO added survey ships and variants of survey ships from SFB to F&E. The SO (542.0) rule modifies (505.0) but does not replace it. It enhances the (505.0) rules by giving you additional options. The Lyrans and/or Kzintis could, if they desired, build a survey cruiser every year thus could have a total of 20 survey cruisers by Turn 34 under (542.11). Of those 20 only 6 can be actively searching under (505.21) and (542.21) as modified by (542.27) and (542.28).

All other empires can do the same as the Lyrans and Kzintis with regards to building one survey ship per year. Of those the Klingons would finish with 19 and the Feds 26. You can do the math for the Hydrans, Romulans, and Gorns.

The Romulan SPC and SPS are virtually identical as far as SFB is concerned. They use the same SSD. In F&E the difference is significant in that a survey cruiser has different personnel requirements than that of a regular scout. Hence the surcharge of a survey cruiser over a scout.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:51 am: Edit

Thomas,

I agree that (505.0) could be understood as listing the Basic F&E2K list in which case there are two Klingon survey ships in the OOB but none in the Romulan. And then SO (542) could be seen as changing the 505.0 list for the Romulans, effectively saying that the 3xSPC are in fact 3 survey ships, so that the 505.0 list should say 3 for the Romulans. I'd like it to clearly state that, and I think it should be taken that way.

However, when you say that the Klingons could send six maximum survey ships off map, I took the list in (505.0) to mean that the maximum they can put off map is 2, and then (542) increases that by three for a new maximum of 5. So, even in the Klingon case, we have trouble with rule (505.0). I've always played that the Klingon maximum limit is five, not six. I think the survey ship maximum off-map operational limits for each empire need to be definitively stated like was just done with the Federation, because there is definitely some ambiguity in the Romulan and Klingon cases.

Jeff

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 12:30 pm: Edit

The max for the Klingons would be 5 off map. I was just pointing out that under (542.11) the Klingons can build a max of 19 total. The other 14 would be on map. The same with other 14 of the Lyrans and Kzintis. In practice these empires do not have the need to invest that much into survey ships.

The first two Klingon and first three Romulan survey infrastructure slots are already paid for and exist at the time of the empire in question's entry into the war under the intro of (505.0).

Dale Fields did a series of tables in the 2009 strategy discussion thread about increasing the number of off map survey ships by empire. That work became the basis for my Tac Note about sending a PT off map survey help as well.

edit:

And the Gorns would have a max of 5 off map as well.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Hi, in our current face to face game, a question came up on the conquering of provinces that needs some clarification, as two rules appear to contradict each other.

First rule is "Captured" (403.22):

If the province contains no friendly units, only enemy units, the province is deemed "captured"....

The Second rule is "Distinction" (430.25):

Planets and Provinces are treated separately. An enemy ship in a province that contains a planet (but not in the planet hex) does not effect the planet even though it does affect the province. A ship in a planet hex affects both the planet and the province the planet is in. A planetary defense unit does not affect the province that the planet is in. It would be possible to capture a neutral zone hex without capturing the planet in it.

This is the situation, I have several provinces in Hydran space where the coalition has ships in the province, but my opponent only has un-devestated planets with intact PDUs in the province.

I have searched under these two rules and found two discussions that describe similar situations:

I've got an odd raid question. I've tried to research this, but I can't see where it's been covered. What happens if I raid a hex with friendly units in it? Specific situation: The Klingons have destroyed BATS 2615 and left behind an F5Q. Arcturia (Minor 2715) is untouched (still has 2xPDU). Now, as of the start of the Alliance turn, the Klingons have captured the province, but not the planet (430.25)...

By Tim Losberg

I didn't see anyone shoot him down saying that his capture is invalid, but that doesn't mean he didn't actually interpret the rules wrong in the same way I did. The other discussion:

Richard, that is incorrect. Per 756.1 a Monitor is a Slow Unit, not a Slow Ship. Not that it makes a difference. It is neither a Non-Ship Unit or a Ship. But like you say, rule 430.22 says "if the province contains no friendly Units", so yes the Monitor must be destroyed to capture the province.

430.23 says that PDUs cannot garrison or disrupt a province, but is silent on Monitors. It would make sense that a Monitor without a CV pallet could not disrupt a province, as it can not have any influence beyond the planet (just like a PDU), but if it has something that can react out of the hex, then it can.

By Robert Padilla

With respect to Robert, I'm not sure I buy his entire argument.

The basic two ways of looking at these rules are this:

1) 430.22 says friendly units, PDUs are units in the province, therefore the province is not captured.

2) 430.25 says PDUs cannot affect the province of the planet there are on, therefore they are not actually technically in the province, they are just on the planet or something similarly hand wavy or 430.22 is just plain wrong and the word units needed to be change to clarify which units qualify and which do not for preventing capture of the province.

I originally interpreted this to favor 430.25 and say that the province can be captured and the PDUs on a planet don't matter. But Richard did point out something that makes sense saying that 403.25 could have been primarily intended to stop enemy PDUs from garrisoning or disrupting a province under 430.21 it wasn't intended to say that friendly PDUs are incapable of preventing the province capture. It is also in existence specifically to allow the capture of a NZ hex without taking the planet. It also allows the capture of a province where the original owner has only the RDF (as this have been clarified to not be a unit for any purpose) on the planet. The province could then be captured, but the planet would remain owned by the original owner.

However, I would like an official staff rule, ruling, which is not something I saw in my research and I apologize if this scenario was officially covered and clarified previously.

-Byron

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Byron, specific (430.25) overrides general(430.22) so PDUs have planetary and not provincial coverage...

Monitors, by rule, stay with their assigned planet until a base is built to release it for reassignment, so they should act as PDUs under (430.25) [though one moving through to another planet may be another matter].

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 11:57 pm: Edit

A planet is itself a unit. My opinion is that you have to capture the planet to capture the province.

My opinion about the PDUs is that what the rule means is that a CAPTURED planet with a PDU on it (garrisoning the planet) cannot also garrison the province.

I don't believe that anyone is asking about monitors, and I also believe that Stewart's opinion about monitors is incorrect. A base without fighters or PFs (such as a BATS) would have to be destroyed to capture a province containing it (in my opinion).

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Monday, April 06, 2015 - 02:11 am: Edit

Sorry, I didn't intend all my comments in my next to last paragraph to sound like Richard's opinions. Only the one sentence his name appears in was his argument for why 430.25's purpose.

-Byron

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 09:01 am: Edit

Anybody,

I think there was a ruling (or clarification) sometime within the last year that said a raiding ship still has the opportunity to conduct the "special attack" even if the result of the interception battle is that the intended target retreated.

But I can't find it now. Does anybody else remember this?