If I recall, retreat out of the hex by the defender doesn't actually occur until AFTER the special attack takes place.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 10:32 am: Edit

Agree with Richard. You can do the special attack even if the interception battle results in retreat.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 11:41 am: Edit

I found it, but not where I expected.

It was in the Q&A Discussions, on 3/6/14. FEDS posted a clarification to the SOP, and it's made clear that retreating ships don't retreat until after the alternative attack option.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 08:35 pm: Edit

By 430.23, PDUs flat out cannot garrison or disrupt a province. And if a PDU can't, I cannot see how a planet without PDUs could.

A base clearly can, the rules say so.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 08:45 pm: Edit

My opinion is that garrison is something that only refers to captured planets and provinces, not for friendly planets and provinces.

My opinion about the PDUs is that what the rule means is that a CAPTURED planet with a PDU on it (garrisoning the planet) cannot also garrison the province.

430.23 only speaks of the effect of PDUs in a captured province (ie the Lyrans capture province 1001 and place a PDU there).

430.23 Certainly does not speak of a province with a friendly PDU on a friendly planet (ie province 1105 has 2 PDU on Zelkrat but no alliance ships in the province). In such a case the PDU and planet are units and in my opinion DO prevent capture of province 1105) (430.2 says to capture there cannot be any friendly units in the province).

430.25 In my opinion when talking about PDUs affecting provinces this rule is referring to enemy PDUs garrisoning planets and is unclear.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 04:35 am: Edit

I see the discussion both ways. Richard's interpretation has merit. But I have a vested interest in it being the other way, lol! I would like a staff decision on the rule, as I haven't seen any previous clarification.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Richard, I would read it a bit differently. The rule also says a PDU can't disrupt a province either, which would be the case in your example of Zelkrat. The PDUs cannot affect the capture of the provide since they cannot disrupt it.

By Michael Alan Calhoon (Mcalhoon2) on Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 05:47 pm: Edit

I always thought it meant that a Coalition PDU on a planet in Alliance space would be sufficient to garrison the planet, but would be unable to garrison the province.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 01:15 am: Edit

Michael, Richard and I are all playing a face to face game and I'm inclined to agree with their interpretation, as it appears to be correct if you strictly follow the rules by the letter. But the lack of clarity is undenied and indeed Richard encouraged me to ask this question. As much as I love hearing other gamer's opinions, its all just opinions. What I'd love is some official clarity being given to this rules interaction.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 10:23 am: Edit

Michael Calhoon is correct. A PDU is sufficient to garrison a planet but not a province. A ship of some type is still required to garrison the province. See (508.23), (430.22) and (430.25).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 02:36 pm: Edit

That's not the question under discussion Thomas.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Yes, the question is whether a friendly PDU or planet prevents capture of a province by an enemy occupying the province with ships, but not the planet.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 03:39 pm: Edit

No it doesn't. PDU fighters, and PFs when available, cannot react out of the planet's hex under (205.70). They also cannot move into another hex operationally under (319.13). While (319.0) is an expansion rule it effectively prohibits PDU fighters, and PFs when available, from projecting combat power into adjacent hexes in the owning player's phasing turn.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 04:42 pm: Edit

(430.22) CAPTURED: If the province contains no friendly units, only enemy units, the province is deemed "captured."

(756.0) NON-SHIP UNITS: …planets.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. If a province contains an un-captured planet, that province is not captured. As an un-captured planet is a friendly unit.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Your opinion is noted and it certainly would be to my benefit if the official answer agrees with it, but the text of the rule in 430.22 clearly says friendly units. Both PDUs and planets are units and would appear to contradict your opinion. That said, if FEDS would like to side with you in an official clarification I will not file a written protest. But baring an official clarification siding with my original opinion, I'm afraid I have to concede the point to Richard and Michael.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 07:02 pm: Edit

My comment above was meant in reply to Thomas, Peter sneaked his in right before mine. I'm sure Michael and Richard are glad to find that they aren't alone in the player community on being on that side of the argument.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Heh, yeah, we both posted at the exact same moment :-)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, April 13, 2015 - 12:47 am: Edit

You cannot capture a province containing an uncaptured planet, so just have a Seltorian battlewagon eliminate the planet. They can do that.

By Michael Alan Calhoon (Mcalhoon2) on Monday, April 13, 2015 - 01:15 am: Edit

If the Klingons put the planet in Stasis, does the province still contain an uncaptured planet?

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Monday, April 13, 2015 - 03:55 am: Edit

I love it. Although, there is an interesting point under all this, planets are units, but does a captured planet become a unit for the other side? The second its not garrisoned it goes back to being a unit for the side its normally friendly to, does it without PDUs and only with a RDF suddenly uncapture the province its in despite the fact the province is still garrisoned? Turning it into a disrupted province?

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Friday, April 17, 2015 - 04:31 pm: Edit

In my game with Ted, it is turn A8. The Kzinti have been confined for the most part to 1401 and the Marquis area. The Federation is trying to support the Kzinti financially while at a limited war footing. Another key point to the situation is that the Coalition controls the planet at 1502.

The problem is this: there is almost no feasible way for the Federation to get 20 EP to the Kzinti since they cannot safely reach the Kzinti capital.

One of the ways to transport the EP is to use a blockade runner. This is very risky since all of the ships in 1502 have a chance to intercept the runner.

A second way is to move it strategically using both the Federation and Kzinti strategic movement nodes. This is very difficult to arrange without sacrificing her numerous ships to form a chain of friendly units to nullify the enemy ships on 1502.

The third way, which Ted (and I'm assuming some other players) thought was legal, is to use off map movement. However, I just read that only races at war are allowed to use an allies off map area.

Since the situation in our game is fairly typical, and since it seems fairly standard operating procedure for the Federation to give financial aid to the Kzinti at this point, can anybody tell me what I am missing that would make it possible to actually send financial aid?

Some of the relevant rules are as follows:

(207.291) Ships can move from one off-map area to another, but require an entire turn to do so. Ships on the map in Kzinti territory could leave the map on Turn #11, move to the Gorn off-map area on Turn #12 [see (207.293)], and enter the map in Gorn territory on Turn #13. Movement between off-map areas is Strategic Movement and counts against the limits. The Supply Grids are not connected between off-map areas and cannot be connected; see also (411.5). Ships cannot move between off-map areas unless both empires are at War and allied.

(435.223) If the Strategic Movement envisioned by this rule uses allied bases, it will count against the allied Strategic Movement Allowance (204.32) and the mission would require their permission. Sometimes, one ally will build a chain of bases to an allied capital just for things like this.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, April 17, 2015 - 04:59 pm: Edit

The Kzinti could do blockade runs from the offmap area to get EPs from a stockpile in the Federation, perhaps. I do recall that the Kzinti are allowed to enter the Federation to pick up EPs, but you'd have to check the rule for specifics and limitations.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Friday, April 17, 2015 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Good idea, Richard. Though I do not believe the Kzinti can enter the Federation with a blockade run because of the rule below, the Federation could set up a stockpile in Kzinti territory which could then be picked up by a blockade runner. I think this would work, though the stockpile would be vulnerable until it was picked up.

I also imagine that the Federation could set up a mobile base in the neutral zone and place the stockpile there, which would make it less vulnerable.

Does anyone have any other ideas since this one would only make it possible to transfer 10 EP per turn?

Relevant rule:

(654.4) An empire being supported by a Limited War campaign cannot do the following: F: Conduct raids‡ into, through, or from the space of the supporting power.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, April 17, 2015 - 07:28 pm: Edit

602.12 says the Kzinti may send a tug to get EPs (or use an expeditionary fleet) to enter the Federation - it may be that they are allowed to use a blockade run to get EPs as an exception to the normal rule. You may want to Q&A this, or see if it already has been Q&A'd.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Friday, April 17, 2015 - 08:19 pm: Edit

I imagine there might be more than one way for the Kzinti to send a tug. Of course, the more I look into it, the dizzier I am getting. Can anyone add to this?