Ted, I think you missed this:

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Quote:

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, April 13, 2015 - 12:47 am: Edit

You cannot capture a province containing an uncaptured planet, so just have a Seltorian battlewagon eliminate the planet. They can do that.

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By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, April 23, 2015 - 10:07 am: Edit

I think SVC was kidding. About the Seltorian part, I mean.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, April 23, 2015 - 11:04 am: Edit

Huh?


How does that make sense in view of 430.25 (PDUs do not affect the province capture), 430.21 (requiring a friendly SHIP or BASE to create a disrupted province, as opposed to a captured province, when an enemy ship is present), and 438.2 (a province "occupied" unless original owning SHIP present)?

A PDU is also a "unit" and it doesn't affect capture of a province (430.25), so how does a bare planet without PDUs do so?

I think maybe SVC was referring to a ruling a few years ago that you can't annex a province without annexing the planet (they're tied), but capture of the two was different.

SVC, was that an off-hand comment meant to be an amusing reference to the Seltorians, or an actual ruling or rules change?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, April 23, 2015 - 01:33 pm: Edit

From Q&A:

This has probably been overly covered, but a two day debate has occurred, and the same arguments have occurred with other players. A battle in hex 1004 has ended with 6 Kzinti ships retreating. There is a Lyran FF in each of hexes 1005, 0905, 0904, 1003, and 1104, also an 8 ship Lyran force in the battle hex, 1004. The Kzinti wants to retreat to hex 1104. Does this require a fighting retreat to opt out of priority 4, or does priority 2 allow any of the surrounding hexes because the Kzinti outnumbers the single FFs? Further if the Lyran opts to retreat as well, would it be a fighting retreat into hex 1105?

*Before this can be answered there are a couple of questions:

*1) What units are in 1105?

*2) How far is a supply route to each of the potential retreat hexes and is that route to a partial grid or to a main grid?

*3) I assume that the only Kzinti units involved are in 1004 and that the Lyran units in 1004 are definitely not also retreating. Is this actually the case, and if not, what IS the case?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, April 24, 2015 - 07:32 am: Edit

Doh - should have read this topic before Q&A...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, April 24, 2015 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Don't worry, Paul. I should read a lot of things before I come in here. Gotta remember to stay out.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, April 25, 2015 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>A PDU is also a "unit" and it doesn't affect capture of a province (430.25), so how does a bare planet without PDUs do so? >>

A PDU doesn't capture (garrison; 430.23) an enemy province.

An un-captured planet keeps a friendly province un-captured.

They are doing two different things. One is an enemy unit capturing (or not, as the case may be) enemy space. The other is a friendly unit preventing friendly space being captured.

The rule in question (430.22) is very clear about units. A planet is a unit. If there is an un-captured planet in a province, that province can't be captured, only disrupted.

I suspect that trying to project the rules for enemy PDUs capturing provinces or not onto (430.22) is probably over thinking things.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 10:28 am: Edit

Peter, you failed to address how your argument contradicts two other rules: 430.21 (requiring a friendly SHIP or BASE to create a disrupted province, as opposed to a captured province, when an enemy ship is present), and 438.2 (a province "occupied" unless original owning SHIP present).

I think 430.22 referenced "unit" with the unintended consequence that a bare planet would be a "unit" and thus prevent capture. I do not think this was "clear" at all.

Since I started tracking the BBS in 2008 I've never seen anyone argue, or played against anyone, who proposed that a bare planet could prevent the capture of a province.

This should be made an official Q&A because I think this interpretation is wrong.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Hmm. 430.21 does say "friendly ship or base". 430.22 says "contains no friendly units.." One of those is mistaken. It is unclear which, however (I don't know what 438.2 says, as it isn't in the basic rule book, and I don't know which one to go dig it up in…).

The wording is the same back to the '89 DF+E rules. It is possible that your understanding is correct (i.e. that a bare planet wasn't originally a "unit" and then later on, it became defined as a "unit"). But 430.22 does specifically say "unit".

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Peter, now we agree. It's unclear because the rules contradict each other. I think the language in 430.22 was changed to "unit" and an unintended consequence happened.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 27, 2015 - 07:53 pm: Edit

The language (as far as I can tell) in 430.22 has always said "unit" (at least since 1989). I think if anything changed, it is what the definition of a "unit" is.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Gentlemen,

I need someone who really understands the extended reaction rules to help me clarify a pinning question.

Setup: For the sake of this question, assume that all bases and other fixed points are not on the map. Imagine a large Klingon North Fleet moves into hex 3314 from 3214. 3214 contains three Federation frigates. The Klingon player elects to leave behind a D5V, an AD5, and an F5E to be pinned by those Federation frigates. Two hexes away in hex 3513 is the large Federation 1st fleet (accompanied by plenty of scouts). With this setup in mind, consider the following scenarios:

Scenario A: The Federation player elects to react a force of ten ships (designated Federation 2nd Fleet) toward 3314, so 2nd fleet moves into hex 3413 on the pulse in which North fleet entered hex 3314. For North’s next movement pulse, North goes to hex 3313. Because Federation 2nd fleet had already reacted toward the 3314 entry pulse and because the D5V group is pinned there, nothing prevents Federation 2nd from continuing its reaction toward 3314. 2nd Fleet could alternatively move to 3313, where North just went. But the Federation 1st fleet may not dispatch another force of ten ships (designated Federation 3rd Fleet) and react them toward 3314, because no enemy ships entered that hex on this movement pulse. The Federation could dispatch 3rd Fleet toward 3313 including hex 3413. But even if the North fleet moves away to 3312 on its subsequent movement pulse, 3rd fleet may not enter 3314, because it was not initially dispatched on the enemy movement pulse entering 3314.

Is this analysis correct?

Scenario B: Now imagine a variant . . . suppose that on the pulse when North fleet initially enters hex 3314 and suffers its D5V group to be pinned, that the Federation 1st Fleet dispatches nothing via reaction to that pulse. Then suppose that North fleet for its next pulse enters hex 3313. The Federation 1st fleet may not now react 2nd fleet toward 3314, because it failed to react on the pulse when enemy ships entered that hex. The Fed 2nd fleet could, because of the terrain, react to North Fleet’s movement into 3313 by moving to 3413. But unless some additional enemy unit enters or re-enters 3314, 2nd may not move into that hex.

Is this analysis correct?

If I have this all wrong, it can’t be true (can it?) that the Federation 1st fleet could wait to react 2nd fleet toward 3314 until the Klingon North fleet has completed all its pulses and ended up in hex 3310, right?

Scenario C: Finally, assuming the above analyses were correct, suppose that when North fleet entered 3314, there were no Federation frigates at all. If the Federation reacts the ten ship 2nd fleet to 3413 and then all of North fleet moves to 3313, 2nd may not move to 3314. If the North fleet had left behind the D5V group, and proceeded to 3313, the Federation player still would not be allowed to “complete the reaction” of 2nd toward 3314, because no Klingon ships entered that hex this pulse. The Klingon ships that are there result from a fleet division only. But if after North fleet completes its moves and then the Klingon player comes back to his D5V group and declares for their next movement pulse they will stay put, then Fed 2nd fleet could enter 3314 and pin them. Correct?

If true, then the only reason that in the original case the Fed 2nd fleet could move toward a non-moving and pinned force on a movement pulse of another fleet away from said hex, is it’s being pinned should not deprive the 2nd fleet from completing its already begun reaction. Correct?

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Scenario A isn't correct, since you can only react to one stack of ships at a time, the stack that is moving. And since that one isn't fully correct, I can't respond to B or C.

I think you're missing part of the rule.

When a stack of ships stops, then the opponent can move up to two hexes to react to that stack of ships stopping.

It doesn't matter if it's the 6th pulse, or if they announce that they're stopping after just the 1st pulse.

And when you split stacks, each stack of ships must complete it's movement before the next stack continues movement. I can't quote you rule numbers right now, but these are both pretty basic rules.

So, if you move the North Fleet into 3314 from 3214, the 2nd fleet in 3513 can react one hex to that movement.

So far, so good.

But now you've announce a stack split. You may continue with the D5V, AD5, and F5E and announce that they've stopped, in which case the 2nd fleet now gets an opportunity upon that announcement to react into 3314.

Or, you may choose to say "I'm leaving the D5V, AD5, and F5E here (for now) and since I meet pinning requirements, I can continue with the North fleet into 3313.

If you chose the second option, then the North fleet is the moving stack of ships, and is the only stack of ships that can trigger reaction movement.

But after they're done, you must eventually return to the D5V, AD5 and F5E to announce the completion of their movement, at which point they can trigger reaction movement, even by announcing that they've stopped.

You need to be clear when you split stacks, even if you split stacks to resolve pinning, which is the moving stack.

Let's shift gears to the Kzinti front for a moment for an example.

The Coalition has a large force on 1504 which the Kzinti wish to avoid. They also have a large force on 1001, and a small force on 1202.

The Coalition is trying to upgrade a MB->BATS in 1204 which the Kzinti want to take out. They have enough ships to do so, but not if they get pinned on the way.

They set out from their capital to 1302, the Lyrans decline to react from 1202, and then the Kzinti move to 1202, and the Lyrans react from 1001 to 1102.

At this point, the Kzinti must leave behind enough ships to resolve pinning, but they DO NOT HAVE TO CLAIM THEY'VE STOPPED MOVING. All they do is split the stack, and the larger portion of the stack, the ones with a MB->BATS upgrade to disrupt, continues on their way to 1203 and then 1204 and everything is good. Eventually, the Kzinti must return to the poor cannon fodder in 1202, and announce that they've stopped, whereupon the Lyran pounce with the forces in 1102, and the few ships in 1202 fight a brief, but glorious battle, knowing that their sacrifice helped the bulk of the fleet reach their destination.

And theoretically, why would the pinned group have to claim it has stopped moving? Is it not possible that a portion of the moving fleet could move from 1202 to 1203, and then back to 1202, whereupon the originally "pinned" ships are released and continue with their 3rd pulse of movement?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Too long to go through everything right now but I will comment that the D5V is not pinned because it has a higher command rating than the FFs.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 07:58 pm: Edit

A pinned group cannot move again unless there is enough CR to allow part of it to continue with (rejoin) the moving stack...

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Saturday, May 09, 2015 - 09:34 pm: Edit

The rules state that sufficient forces must be left behind in hexes containing other ships, and then gives detail as to how to meet the requirement.

The rules never state that that those ships left behind immediately stop moving.

And if you leave three ships behind (because you must) and move 7 out, nowhere in the rules does it prohibit some of those 7 returning to the hex, and the original three then leaving the hex. (But of course you cannot use ships that weren't part of the same original stack, since once a stack begins movement, it must be completed before you start moving a new stack.)

Provided he always has sufficient ships in the hex, according to the pinning rules, the phasing player, when splitting stacks, decides which ships move, and in what order they move, including when they stop.

And if you follow that one simple guideline, and the fact that there is only ever one stack that is moving, then all of the reaction rules become so much easier to understand and far more predictable.

This has been ruled before. It's far too common to be a new issue.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 09:09 am: Edit

I take back what I said.

There's a FEDS ruling from 12/29/12 that says once a ship is pinned, it is forced to stop.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 12:47 am: Edit

MS, on your example in Q&A, how did the Kzinti leave the capital to get to 1202 as the 1403 force (if scout equipped) can react to movement into 1302?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 06:23 am: Edit

Matt, neither one is totally correct. The pinned ship stops movement when pinned, but because it was part of the original stack of moving ships, the reacting player may only react one hex. The phasing player moves another pulse. On this next pulse the reacting may react his ship/scout for the second hex. See (205.32). Only on the sixth pulse (seventh for fast ships and X-ships) can a scout or group of ships with a scout in the outer reaction zone move two hexes in a "single" pulse to "pin" enemy ships.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 07:14 am: Edit

Thomas,

It was an either / or. Either the Kzinti player can move before the Lyran gets there or he can't.

If he can, then we have the situation where he has left the hex (and is in fact moving away) where the Lyran player reacts to something else entirely, a ship that has stopped moving.

I don't have my rulebook with me right now, so I can't quote the rule number, but there are also rules that say "when a ship stops, it is considered to have spent all of it's movement points in the last hex." This would be the equivalent of a ship being pinned, or at least should be.

There are also rules that say "you can only react to something moving. You can't react to something that has previously stopped moving."

The movement rules used to make 100% sense to me. The phasing player is in charge of all of his movement, and provided he follows the rules about sufficient forces left behind, it is his choice how he moves his ships, splits his stacks, and when each ship stops.

Now they don't. FEDS made a ruling that messed with that, and said "the enemy decided for you. You now must pick a ship or to stop, it forfeits all remaining movement."

I now have about 3 other situations that I thought I knew the answer to, but now I'm not so sure, and based on this ruling could go either way. I think I know the answer to each, but each is consistant with my old thinking, and a bit inconsistant with the FEDS ruling. So I need to ask.

I'm going to try to get them all down in one post when I have time, hopefully later today.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 07:18 am: Edit

Stewart, in my example I said specifically that the 1403 force lacked a scout.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 08:40 am: Edit

Gentlemen,

I realize now that Richard is correct. I intended to create a situation of mutual pin. So, assume for this scenario that the Klingon and Federation forces match-pin each other.

However, the discussion I've been watching on the matters seems unclear to me. Along with Matthew's latest comments, I used to think I understood these rules too, but now I'm confused with the possibility that a reacting force can continue toward a hex without moving forces within it.

Jeff

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 12:14 pm: Edit

A reacting force that uses extended reaction cannot go the second hex if the unit(s) that provoked the reaction move AWAY from the reacting forces on the very next pulse of movement. The reacting force also cannot go the 2nd hex if they get pinned upon moving that first hex.

Otherwise the reacting force can move to the second hex on the next pulse of movement of the force that provoked reaction (or if the provoking force stopped or were pinned then before the next stack starts moving, or before reserve movement begina if operational movement is done).

This is my understanding of how things works if that helps at all. If I left anything out or am mistaken, I apologize in advance.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Richard,

That all makes sense given the ruling, and is perhaps even what FEDS intended.

But there is a black and white rule that says basically "you can only react to moving forces, not something that stopped previously".

There's another black and white rule that says if a ship stops, it's assumed to spend all of it's remaining movement points in that hex.

And finally, there's another black and white rule that says if a ship ends it's movement in the hex, the opponent can react two pulses to the end of the movement.

Hence the question. I would like to know which of those rules, if any, was invalidated by the FEDS ruling, because unless FEDS rules that the Lyran player can react two hexes to the Kzinti fleet in 1202 immediately, and before it moves to 1203, at least one of those black and white rules seems to me to be voided.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 03:12 pm: Edit

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Quote:

There's another black and white rule that says if a ship stops, it's assumed to spend all of it's remaining movement points in that hex.

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