Archive through June 19, 2015
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS: F&E Q&A Discussions: Archive through June 19, 2015
By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Matthew:

At no time do I say you can react to a unit that stopped previously.

You can, however, finish reacting once you have done the first hex if the unit you are reacting to stops. Which is part of what I said.

Reaction opportunities are provoked by two things (can't think of more).

Movement within reaction range that is not away from the potentially reacting unit.

Stopping within reaction range.

The act of being pinned does not in and of itself provoke reaction.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 07:06 pm: Edit

So, Richard, in my example, all three of my scenarios, A, B, and C are correct (after changing my pinned ships to 3xD5 and 3xNCL)? If I'm understanding what you are saying, you are affirming that.

If I'm mistaken, please tell me exactly where I went wrong (other than the command rating/seqs/pinning issue).

Thanks,
Jeff

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2015 - 10:46 pm: Edit

I am not feeling well tonight and don't want to think hard enough to analyze your scenarios right now.

If the mood takes me, I may make a go at it at some point in the future. No promises.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Q430.2

The questioner commented that Monitors are not ships, but I think they are:

756.0 Lists non-ship units. Monitors are not on that list.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 - 04:22 pm: Edit

IMHO this argument results from an unintended consequence of making a "planet" a "unit."

I believe, absent an explicit rule, that a ship captures a province with only a planet the province - regardless of whether PDUs are on the planet.

However, now that a "planet" is a unit, either way the rule should be updated and defined.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Monitors are listed as slow units. I'm not sure if they are considered ships, but if they are they would be the only slow unit to be one.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Overloaded tugs? Can't remember.

By David J Baldwin (Chiefdave) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 11:05 pm: Edit

For the extended reaction discussion. The Feds can continue their extended reaction to 3314 unless the Klingons pin their 2nd fleet. Nothing can stop the extended reaction except pinning him first.

By David J Baldwin (Chiefdave) on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 11:08 pm: Edit

When the Fed Second fleet enters 3314, they are done reacting. But now the FFs that were pinned there are unpinned. Not all the 2nd fleet has to continue to 3314. Some could stay put, some could react to the recently moved Klingon fleet in 3313.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 12:14 am: Edit

David, your explanation is imprecise.

You cannot 'continue' an extended reaction. You could, however, use a normal reaction to continue.

The difference in terms actually matters:
extended reaction lets you react to things at two hexes, as well as one. Once you use your extended reaction, you cannot react to things two hexes away.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 11:43 am: Edit

Richard,

Quote:

The act of being pinned does not in and of itself provoke reaction.



I'm still waiting for an answer from FEDS or FEAR to the Q&A I posted last month.

It may end up that what you said isn't in fact true, and that FEDS rules that the act of being pinned means that the ships must immediately stop (he says very nearly this in his ruling from 12/29/2012) which then means that the rule that says a ship that stops is presumed to spend all of it's remaining pulses in that hex, and the rule that says you may react two hexes to a ship that stops then immediately apply, and in fact you can "continue an extended reaction."

We'll know more later. I presume that Chuck and Mike are working on this behind the scenes.

Either that or they're ignoring the question.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Is this an academic question or is there real-play situation involved here?

Whatever the case can you repost the researched question and give an example of the situation?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Once you use extended reaction, you are no longer eligible to use extended reaction, hence no continuing extended reaction. If you spend the time to research this, you will find it is so.

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 03:17 pm: Edit

(205,11) ONCE ... Each ship can make one (and only one) Reaction movement.
I had this one wrong in my head

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Just to make it clear, the above post by Bill is not a quote of anything in the rule. I recommend that anyone with an interest read the actual rule.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Chuck,

The original question that prompted your 12/29/2012 ruling was from a game.

My question to help me understand that ruling is more academic, meaning that right now I don't have a game situation that depends one way or the other on the response, just that I want to know the rules going forward.

I'll repost my questions later today, after some additional research. The original question was on May 10th, with a follow up on May 19th.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Chuck,

Here's what you said on 12/29/2012:

Quote:

When units are pinned they are FORCED to stop ALL operational movement because the enemy took an action to stop any further movement of the pinned units; there is nothing to decide here as the enemy has done it for you. The only decision is to decide what ships are left behind to satisfy the pinning requirement.

"Pinned" means: to hold, press, hold fast, hold down; restrain, pinion, immobilize.

Once a unit is pinned it is no longer capable of using operational movement; any remaining operational movement pulses are lost for the pinned unit.



Now my question:

It's early in the war. Lyrans have taken 1105 and are in the process of a MB->BATS upgrade. They also hold 1001 with a large force, and 1202 with a token force of 3xFF.

Klingons have a large force in 1403, but this force lacks a scout, limiting reaction range to one hex.

The Kzinti want to stop the MB->BATS conversion at 1105, and have sufficient forces in the capital to win that fight, but not if engaged by either the 1001 force or the 1403 force.

They plan to move from 1401->1302->1202 (leaving behind 3 FF for pinning requirements) and then continue to 1203->1204->1105.

As they enter 1202, the Lyran player announces that his large force in 1001 immediately moves two hexes to pin the Kzinti force in 1202. He cites your ruling above. He also cites 203.64 which states that a unit which ends its movement (announced by the owner) with unspent movement points is assumed to spend those points in the last hex. He also cites 205.32 which states that if a unit moves into a hex on the sixth pulse that the reacting ships can move two hexes to intercept. He cites 205.11 which states that the reaction to a given enemy unit can occur immediately after a pulse of movement of that unit or (203.64) after a later non-moving pulse of that unit. (Emphasis mine.)

The Kzinti player claims that 205.32 prohibits such a reaction since the reaction occurs "... at separate times (after each pulse of enemy movement.)"

The Lyran player responds "That can't be. If I were prohibited from moving two hexes immediately, then I can't finish my reaction since that would be in direct violation of 205.11 which states "they cannot react to a unit that finished its movement after another unit begins moving." If I can't react immediately when they stop, I am prohibited from reacting as the other forces leave. Since I am CLEARLY allowed to react to this battle, and I am CLEARLY prohibited from doing so after the main body leaves, I MUST be allowed to do so right now."

Who is right?

--------------------------------------

I'll say that I disagree with the 12/29/2012 ruling. I didn't see it happen at the time. There was a single question on 12/28/2012, and a ruling a day later. Any discussion that might have occurred in this topic has since been deleted.

To me, it seems that the phasing player should be allowed to move in the sequence he wishes, including deciding when ships stop, provided he doesn't violate the pinning rules. There are clear rules that allow RESV fleets to be unpinned by other RESV fleets.

Why then should operational movement be any different?

In the absence of enemy units, movement such as the following is clearly legal: The Kzinti player, as per above, moves from 1401->1302->1202 at which point he split stacks. 3 FF remain in 1202 (but with unspent movement.) The remainder of the force moves from 1202 -> 1203 and then back to 1202 where they end movement. The original 3 FF then resume movement and return to the Kzinti capital via 1302 then to 1401.

But, according to your ruling, in the presence of the three Lyran FF this would be illegal, even though the Kzinti player never moves units out of the hex in violation of the rules in 203.50.

These appear inconsistent to me. In one case (RESV fleets) a unit is allowed to be "unpinned" but in another case (your ruling) it is not.

In my interpretation of the written rules (absent your ruling) after the Kzinti entered 1202, the Lyrans could only react one hex to 1102 per 205.32. The Kzinti would be allowed to split stacks. He could leave three FF there to cover the three Lyran FF and then move the remainder of his forces out. After reaching 1105, he returns to the three FF in 1202 and announces the end of their movement, at which point the Lyrans may react the second pulse. He could not react from 1102->1202 before then since the large force was moving away, and the three FF were not moving.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 10:15 pm: Edit

My understanding:

The force reacting from 1001 first go to 1102 (in response to units entering their outer reaction zone).

All of the Kzinti ships but 3FF split off and continue moving (to 1203) and cannot be reacted to. At this point the Lyran player can use normal reaction and go to 1202 in response to the earlier movement of the stack of FFs left there.

In this way, the Kzinti player resolved movement to avoid giving you a two hex jump in the middle of his moving stack's movement.

Essentially this hingest on the phasing player's ability to choose the order to resolve movement of substacks.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Thursday, June 18, 2015 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Richard,

That may be exactly what Chuck intended.

It violates either 205.11 which says that you can only react to moving units, and not units which have stopped previously or it violates 203.61 / 203.611 which state essentially that only one unit (or stack) expends a pulse at a time.

But perhaps Chuck didn't see a way to resolve the question without violating at least one rule.

The trouble is that I'm not sure which one is violated, the one that says you can only react to the pulsing unit(s) or that only one stack expends pulses at a time.

If it's ruled that both the three non-moving FF and the remainder of the stack expend the third pulse simultaneously (in violation of 203.61), then yes, I'd agree that your interpretation is correct.

Or, if it's ruled that this creates a special exception to 205.11, and you can in fact react to a ship that stopped moving while another ship is moving, then that would also support your interpretation.

The third interpretation is that neither rule is violated, and the three Kzinti FF which were forced to stop expend all remaining pulses immediately, thus allowing the immediate two-hex reaction. (Thus supporting the hypothetical Lyran player in my example.)

The reaction rules used to make sense to me. The phasing player is in charge of all phasing movement, including when to split a stack, and in which order to move ships after a stack split, but must always comply with 203.5 when leaving a hex with enemy units. The non-phasing player reacts to whichever unit (or stack) is currently moving. When pinning happens, 203.5 controls moving units out of the hex, and applies equally to both players.

In that case, the answer is clear. The Lyran player can only react one hex to 1102 when the Kzinti enter 1202, and then the Kzinti split stacks, moves the bulk of the force away, and then (and only then) he returns to the three FF and announces the end of their movement, at which point the Lyran player is afforded another reaction opportunity, and can now move the 2nd hex.

But if your interpretation is correct, and the phasing player does have the opportunity to leave before the Lyrans arrive, then why didn't Chuck simply rule that the phasing player can make those decisions when to split stacks and in what order to move them provided he complies with 203.5? It would make the situation a whole lot easier, and has the added benefit that it complies with the entire rule set as written in the books, with no special exception to either 205.11 or 203.61.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 12:18 am: Edit

Well, opponents willing, until Chuck or someone official rules otherwise, I'm going with my interpretation.

It avoids two hex jumps in the middle of a stack's movement, which I think is the intent of the rules.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 02:05 am: Edit

Agree with Richard's interpretation.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 05:07 am: Edit

NOT AN OFFICIAL RULING -- YET...

I cannot find an enabling rule that allows for two hex reaction movement jumps WHILST the originating stack is still moving. The origination stack would have a pulse opportunity followed by ONE hex of reaction by the non-phasing player (unless the originating stack completed its movement).

Here's how I am seeing this workout:

M = Moving Player
R = Reacting Player

M1: Stack "A" moves and pins 3 ships; leaves 3 ship force 'P' to resolve pinning. This movement is within extended reaction range for force 'B'.

R1: Reaction force B can move ONE hex toward Stack A using extended reaction.

M2: The original Stack A moves away from reaction Force B.

R2: Reaction Force B must now use normal reaction to complete its reaction movement toward pinning Force P since it is pinned and has completed its movement.

M3-6: Stack A continues moving elsewhere.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 05:19 am: Edit

I think in R2, you mean can now use rather than must now use?

But if you don't do that reaction right then, then you won't be able to later (assuming nothing provokes another reaction opportunity).

Right?

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 05:22 am: Edit

In R2, should "must" be "may"? Couldn't the reacting force simply decide to not move a second hex?

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 06:28 am: Edit

Quote:

I cannot find an enabling rule that allows for two hex reaction movement jumps WHILST the originating stack is still moving.



Chuck,

Consider the case exactly as I described except the three Lyran FF are not in 1202.

The large Kzinti forces moves to 1202 at which point they announce that three FF are stopping. Per 203.64, the FF are assumed to spend the remaining pulses in that hex, and per 205.32, the Lyrans are allowed to react two hexes, even though the remainder of the Kzinti force has unspent movement points.

Those are the enabling rules that would allow the two hex reaction. Once the FFs stop, if the Lyran player decides NOT to react into 1202 while the entire Kzinti force is there, the Kzinti are free to move away knowing that since the three FF are done moving, no further reaction to those ships is possible.

So, is the rule different if I decide to stop instead of being forced to stop?

I would ask that you reconsider your original 12/29/2012 ruling.

It doesn't make sense that the rules would be different if I decide to stop vs. being forced to stop. Furthermore, the rules were already fully consistent with what you're proposing here. The phasing player is in control of operational movement, and may move his ships in any order that he wishes, and may split stacks at any time, and may decide which sub-stack moves first after a stack split. The non-phasing player is in charge of reaction movement, and may react one hex to each pulse of movement, and two if they are reacting to a ship that spends it's sixth pulse (or seventh if fast.) Pinning rules govern leaving a hex, and apply to both phasing and non-phasing player, as the situation may require. (Since there's no situation in a two-sided game in which they'd both be simultaneously trying to move out of a hex where both players have ships, there aren't any further complications.)

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