It depends on the order that you resolve the substack. If you split three ships and declare they are stopping, yes a reacting force can move 2 hexes since they spent their last move point. Then move the bigger substack part of or all of which would now also be pinned by the reacting force if it is bigger than three ships.

Or you could split three ships but move the bigger substack first, moving it off to wherever, then finish the three ship substack which involves declaring it is ending its move allowing the final reaction.

Remember when you create substacks resolve them all before starting a new stack's movement but you can resolve the substacks in the order you want.

By David J Baldwin (Chiefdave) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 11:48 am: Edit

Matthew,
When the Klingons entered 3314, they pinned Fed FFs. The Klingons are the pinning force. They aren't themselves pinned. The Klingons are forced to leave behind a covering force.
The Feds used extended reaction to move toward 3314, reacting to the force in 3314. The next impulse part of the Klingon force moved to 3313, leaving the required ships behind in 3314. Hence there is still a force in 3314 that the Feds are reacting to. This has been covered before. The force using extended reaction can move the second hex to a force entering it's extended reaction range even though the phasing force stopped moving. Part of your phasing force stopped moving in 3314, they were left behind as a covering force.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 12:18 pm: Edit

I meant "must use or lose":

R2: Reaction Force B must now use normal reaction to complete its reaction movement toward pinning Force P or lose the opportunity to react to pinned Force P since it is pinned and has completed its movement.

By Matthew Smith (Mgsmith67) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Nick,

I agree completely with you and believe that the rules support exactly what you are saying.

But when presented with the question on 12/28/2012, FEDS answered something different, implying (or stating) that the phasing player didn't have a choice, and that three ships (or really in this case only one ship, assuming a CR difference of at least two) must immediately stop.


Chuck,

To continue my appeal, I wish to bring up two more brief situations / questions.

Does the "FORCED to stop ALL operational movement because the enemy took an action to stop any further movement of the pinned units" apply to ships that haven't moved at all yet?

For instance, the turn begins with ships in adjacent hexes. The Federation has three FF in 2010 (plus the BATS fighters.) The Klingons hold 1910 with a large force. The Federation moves from 2211 to 2111. The Klingons react four ships into 2010. Are those three FF forced to give up all future operational movement, even if the large force moving in 2111 continues on to 2010, and the Federation forces currently outnumber the Klingons? If the three FF don't lose their movement, why is it different that a ship that has used zero pulses loses none when pinned since it can be unpinned by other ships, but a ship that has spent two pulses must lose four and is not allowed to be unpinned at a later time by ship from the same stack?

Does this apply to the non-phasing player? For instance, instead of forces in 1001, the Lyrans had a small force of two FF + SF in 1102. As the Kzinti move into 1302, the Lyrans react in their three ships to 1202 using extended reaction, whereupon the Kzinti also move into 1202. The Kzinti move on, leaving behind a single FF (due to CR difference, this is allowed.) Later in the turn, a new Kzinti force moves from 1401 -> 1302, and the Lyrans wish to react both FF from 1202 to 1302, leaving behind the SF in 1202. Since there's only one Kzinti FF in 1202, they argue it's allowed, even though they were pinned earlier, but the condition that would have prevented them from leaving the hex (the large Kzinti briefly in the same hex) no longer exists.

---------------------------

I always read the pinning rules as a restriction against LEAVING a hex, and one that applies equally to both phasing and non-phasing player, depending upon the circumstance, and one that is reevaluated at each moment a player wishes to move forces out of a hex that contains ships from the opposing player.

I never understood them to be a rule that requires the phasing player to stop ships against his will.

Yes, he must leave at least one ship behind, but in my opinion the "original" ships left behind don't even have to be the "last" ships left behind. For instance, in the 1202 example, with three Lyran FF in 1202, the Kzinti move their force from 1401->1302->1202 and split stacks, leaving three FF there to cover the three Lyran FF. The Lyran reacted to the move into 1202 by moving 1001->1102. The Kzinti then move the larger portion of the fleet out to 1203 at which point they split again, leaving a BC and 2 FF temporarily in 1203. The remainder continues to 1105 as planned. Then the BC and 2 FF continue their move by moving into 1202 and stopping. (The Lyrans decide not to react to this, as is their right.) Then the three FF left in 1202 originally, having spent only two movement points, resume their movement and return to the capital.

Before deciding, could you please read the entire pinning section and reaction movement section with the mindset of "The phasing player controls his forces, and decides completely when forces stop, and in which order they move, the non-phasing player controls his forces, and the pinning rules apply only when ships wish to LEAVE a hex" and see if there is any inconsistancy whatsoever between that viewpoint and the written rules?

(By "decides completely" of course I mean within the rules for splitting stacks, and how once a stack starts moving, every ship within that stack must be done before moving another stack begins movement.)

By David J Baldwin (Chiefdave) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 12:58 pm: Edit

I learned something today. Sub-stack movement. I'd always played while a stack is moving, it can drop off ships, but I'd always understood those ships could not continue moving. Now I see 203.44 instead of dropping them off, you name them sub-stacks and they can continue moving when your primary stack has stopped moving. This will take some practice.
I've been playing since before this game was invented. I always thought sub-stack movement was disallowed as too messy and time consuming. I'm imagining new tactics for Lyran turn 1. Boggles the mind.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, June 19, 2015 - 08:55 pm: Edit

OK, I think I see the problem -

A ship, once it starts movement, continues until the Phasing Player stops its movement or it runs out of movement ability. This also applies to stacks with an exception in that sub-stack(s) [decided at the beginning of movement] are on hold until the moving original stack finishes its movement.

Pinning happens when the Phasing Player enters an enemy occupided hex or the Non-Phasing Player reacts into the Phasing Player's hex.

If the Phasing Player has move SE in the hex, he then decides on which of his ships stays pinned in the hex to screen the opposing ships and continues to move the remaining ships 'forward'.

If the Non-Phasing Player has more SE, the Phasing Player's forces are pinned and cannot move in this OpMove Phase. If the Non-Phasing Player reacted from a scout/base, any SEs over the pin needed still has a reaction hex of movement remaining.

In the case of Reserve Forces, their status for reserve movement is determined after all OpMoves and Reactions, if there is still more Non-Phasing SEs at the end of OpMove, reserve status is maintained and can move out of the hex.

(203.55) provides for the Phasing Player to unpin some of his ships (due to CR ratings) but must be announced immediately to rejoin the moving stack or to become a substack with remainn movement.

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I have a few of questions.

Commercial convoy between the Lyran's and Klingon's is listed as starting in the Klingon capital. However, if the Klingon's pony up to upgrade the BATS in 1009 to a SB on turn 1 the convoy could leave there on turn 2. The difference is a substantial amount of EP. This is listed as a common tactic to upgrade the BATS but does the convoy have to do the original move to the Lyran's from the Klingon capital?

Next. Diplomat exchange. When do they start making money, turn 1 or turn 2? Obviously earning an extra 5 EP(Lyran's) each turn is nice but are diplomats in transit on turn 1 and money starts to flow on turn 2?

Last. Building a second SB in the Lyran capital, is it a good idea? It allows the second major conversion(for the second STT each turn in Y170) but costs a MB and the conversion plus tying up a tug for 3 turns. Eventually a major conversion yard will reduce the second conversion frequency but it can't be ready before Y172S.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 02:39 pm: Edit

*From Q&A:
I have a few of questions.

Commercial convoy between the Lyran's and Klingon's is listed as starting in the Klingon capital. However, if the Klingon's pony up to upgrade the BATS in 1009 to a SB on turn 1 the convoy could leave there on turn 2. The difference is a substantial amount of EP. This is listed as a common tactic to upgrade the BATS but does the convoy have to do the original move to the Lyran's from the Klingon capital?

***It says to setup the Commercial Convoy on any Klingon SB, not just the capital. I don't think you can upgrade that SB as it is in an inactive area, so this whole question seems moot. I personally think you HAVE to set up the com con on turn one, though you could rebuild it elsewhere on turn two if you want (for the 5 EP cost).

Next. Diplomat exchange. When do they start making money, turn 1 or turn 2? Obviously earning an extra 5 EP(Lyran's) each turn is nice but are diplomats in transit on turn 1 and money starts to flow on turn 2?
***Turn 2.

Last. Building a second SB in the Lyran capital, is it a good idea? It allows the second major conversion(for the second STT each turn in Y170) but costs a MB and the conversion plus tying up a tug for 3 turns. Eventually a major conversion yard will reduce the second conversion frequency but it can't be ready before Y172S.
*** Generally it is a terrible idea. Every second major conversion done this way will cost an additional 5 EP over the normal conversion cost. This is in addition to the 39 EP spent on the upgrade (assuming no fighters) and the MB kit used. Lyrantan will be well protected though!

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Somewhat confused by the inactive area comment in the reply about upgrading the BATS to a SB in 1009. I can do conversions and build a frigate at the southern reserve SB on turn 1 and it is not in a "active" area. I wasn't aware of any restrictions to the Klingon builds on turn 1.

Thanks for the quick reply's.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:10 pm: Edit

You cannot upgrade a BATS to a SB in an inactive area.

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Does it become an active area on turn 2 when the Klingon's invade the Kzinti? Heading to 2010 rulebook to look up upgrading bases for rule.

Thanks.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:15 pm: Edit

FYI

---

Quote:

(601.16) PRE-WAR STATUS: Those empires not at War have a
special status defined by these rules.
(601.161) The Klingons on Turn #1 are at full wartime mobilization,
but are not at war with anyone. This is a unique exception to
several rules due to the in-motion war plans, which called for the
Lyrans to launch the first attack and the Klingons to follow a few
months later.
(601.1611) During Turn #1, there are no restrictions on the
Klingons except that they cannot leave their territory (and only
new production ships can leave their fleet deployment zone) and
their Lyran allies cannot enter their territory. The Lyrans cannot
send Economic Points to the Klingons (and vice versa) during
Turn #1. Because they cannot leave their own territory, the
Klingons cannot begin survey operations. See (503.611) regarding
neutral zone hexes between Lyrans and Klingons.
(601.1612) The Klingons on Turn #1 can build and convert
ships (as well as non-ships such as an FRD), use accelerated or
overproduction, accumulate Economic Points, receive and buy
Command Points, raise and buy Prime Teams‡, and anything
else that an empire “at war” could do.
(601.1613) All Klingon fleets are unreleased, so the only ships
that can move are new production.

---

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:35 pm: Edit

I am sure you are probably right but I don't see where it says upgrading a BATS is excluded.

"and anything else that an empire “at war” could do."

In any event I would have to move a tug to the base from an active fleet or the new construction so turn 2 is the earliest I could do the upgrade.

" the only ships that can move are new production." Suggests that a turn 1 TGC build could move to 1009 for a turn 2 upgrade.

Unless I am being unusually thick I don't see the bases can't be upgraded in an inactive area statement.

But since the SB upgrade would not be ready until turn 3 and the convoy will reach a Lyran SB on turn 4 it is a moot point. I don't save any time building it earlier. Turn 4 the Home fleet is released and so I can upgrade that BATS before the convoy would hit 1009 on the way back to the Klingons(turn 6).
I appreciate you helping out a new guy.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 04:45 pm: Edit

(600.32) is the rule.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Yea, the Klingons are basically inactive (except for new construction) on Turn #1 though a new tug and new MB can be planted on the first turn, but where would a new MB do the most good (and what is the Klingon not building/converting to do this)?

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Not needing a MB. Just planning on upgrading the BATS in 1009 to a SB before the commercial convoy gets back from the Lyran SB on turn 6. After that it only takes 2 turns between trips instead of 4.

It is a strategy I noticed from the compendiums and wanted to clarify so I was sure I was doing it right.

Got great answers and very clear about why they were correct. Awesome.

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Everyone says don't build CVT's using the 4 pods in storage by converting 2 TGC's until you can upgrade the pods and make them CVT+'s.

Since the pods are built at start with the fighters already payed for it seems like an easy way to get two CV's with a total of 10 fighters on the cheap when the Klingon's needed attrition units. You can build 2 TGC's(168F, 169S) before the Klingon's jump the Kzinti. Why is this such a reviled option?

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Because on any given turn, you just assign those two unconverted Tugs, mission B and viola you have your two carriers and oh, btw, they have 1 more Compot. PLUS, you don't have to keep them as carriers, they can drop the pods and become supply points, or carry economic points to/from allies or become Battle Tugs, or just about anything. This is massive strategic flexibility that you sacrifice by welding the pods on. Using the pods for actual carrier tugs costs you NOTHING, so why wouldn't you do it that way?

You can even build another set of carrier pods if you're desperate for more pods and more Carrier Tugs. And later.... You can upgrade the pods for 1 point each, no need to upgrade CVTs by making sure they are at a conversion facility, because you just drop the pods into the grid and viola they can be converted at any Starbase in your grid!

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 09:13 pm: Edit

As a follow up on the VP2/VP3 Klingon carrier pods I have the following questions.

Can the D5H carry a single VP2/VP3 pod?

Do the VP3 pods still have to be "welded on" to a tug like the VP2 pods?

Getting much closer to understanding the rules and I am about ready to start solo play. Just wanted to clarify this before starting my turn 1-6 solo play to check how thing go mechanically.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 09:56 pm: Edit

The only time you 'hard weld' pods is to turn a TGA into a TGV. You add carrier pods to a tug to turn it into a carrier tug (which is not, quite, the same thing as a TGV). This is mission B in (509.1).

A D5H can add a single carrier pod under mission B. This makes it a light carrier, eligible for being escorted as such for as long as it carries that pod.

A TGV is a tug that has been permanently turned into a carrier, and isn't really a tug anymore. The reason to do this is to get a cruiser-sized carrier. Since the carrier pods are then gone, you can then build another set so you can build more carrier pods, for giving more tugs mission B. Since there is a limit on how many carriers you can build and a limit on how many tugs you can build, no one does this (other than pre-war Klingons desperate to get large carriers into service).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 10:44 pm: Edit

There is no hard-welded unit called a TGV in F&E. Perhaps you mean CVT. It might still be called a tug as you can unconvert it, as far as I know. You wouldn't get the pods back though.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 10:55 pm: Edit

From QA:

"I would think you could substitute the CC, because the CC is smaller than the CV. The CV for BC build option is a special case, while the downgrade option is a standard rule, allowing a smaller hull - and the CC is still smaller than the CV. "

Anyone know of what standard rule there is that says you can sub a smaller hull for a larger? I don't know it.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 11:21 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Perhaps you mean CVT.

---

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 11:28 pm: Edit

I imagine the answer to that is not often at all.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 11:43 pm: Edit

RBE - 515.525 'standard warship' is the BC...