That wasn't my question. I do know that you can sub a BC for a CV but that wasn't what was being asked in Q&A.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 12:34 am: Edit

RBE - Stewart has the correct answer. 515.525 has the answer.

Fixed typo.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 12:46 am: Edit

515.25 Is talking about Lyran and Gorn carrier groups...

To make myself more clear, what I am contending is that there is not a rule that says (generally) that you can substitute any smaller ship for any larger ship.

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I completely agree that you can sub standard warships for carriers and escorts (515.525) and that for the Kzinti CV the standard warship (at least prior to the BCH?) is the BC for this purpose. I never meant to give the impression that I was arguing otherwise on this.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 01:03 am: Edit

RBE fixed my typo above. 515.525. Downgrade substitutions are listed in the Unit OOBs should all by 7xx.222 and based on 450.4

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 01:06 am: Edit

Nod, I know of those too. Just saying that if there is a rule saying you can always do a smaller hull for a larger hull, I do not know of it. For example, a Gorn HD cannot be subbed for a BC or DN.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 01:21 am: Edit

450.4 is a "comprehensive" list not include previously listed rules. All have been consolidated into the OOBs. Some downgrades are not allowed.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 09:16 am: Edit

Ok. Kzinti BC for CV it is!

By Daniel Waugh (Coriendal) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 05:36 pm: Edit

So a CVT is a tug with AP2 pods "welded on". Advantage is that if crippled the carrier pods continue to work(at half capacity). If you unconvert it you lose the pods and get a TGA.

A TGA or TGB could be given the carrier mission, would use two pods but if crippled the pods would cease to function. You could also mix a VP2(or VP3 later on) with a battle pod, etc. LTT's(D5H) can carry one VP2 or VP3 pod.

Is this an accurate description of CVT vs. Tug with carrier mission for the Klingon's?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - 07:04 am: Edit

Daniel

Correct

There are very few tactical reasons to convert a Tug to a CVT - but there will be times when it could be useful, examples could be -

1) Knowing the Tug will likely be crippled in the coming turn (close battle etc) and wanting the 2 or 3 fighters for the following turn

2) You must have a Carrier in Hex X and in Hex Y - and the only way to achieve that is hard weld the pods to the Tug in Hex X and buy new pods to send to a Tug in Hex Y.

Simple

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 01:57 pm: Edit

It is obvious that a starbase in a partial grid must pay for replacement fighters when a unit is not at the starbase. However, it is unclear whether the starbase must pay for replacement fighters when the unit is in the hex of the starbase.

These two rules seem to indicate that a starbase might need to pay for replacement fighters for all units, regardless of where they are in the partial grid:

(420.432) The repair facility must be in a Supply Grid to perform repairs. FRDs and battle stations (and other bases) must be connected to a Supply Grid (FRDs never form part of it); bases can conduct repairs in a Partial Supply Grid (413.34) and can replace fighters if they have the EPs to pay for them (413.41). See also (410.4).

(413.41) ABILITY: Each Economic Point produced in a Partial Supply Grid can be used to supply up to five units, including up to twelve replacement fighters.

However, this rule seems to indicate that units on the starbase do not need to pay for replacement fighters since those units are supplied without cost:

(413.42) BASE: If a base is in the Partial Supply Grid (410.34), it draws Economic Points from the Partial Supply Grid for repair or production purposes (but continues to supply without cost the ships in its hex, as do planets and battle stations).

Can anybody confirm whether or not units in the hex of a starbase in a partial grid need to pay for replacement fighters?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 02:24 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure you have to be connected to the main grid to get *free* replacement fighters, and have to pay for them if you are in a partial grid - but since I'm party to this issue I won't say more.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 02:55 pm: Edit

I agree with Ted

Only the main grid gets replacement for free.

Any other grids can get replacements - but you have to pay for them if you do want replacements.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 02:59 pm: Edit

501.5 sheds light on this I believe.

Specifically:

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Quote:

(501.55) COST: Replacement fighters are free unless drawn from a Partial Supply Grid (413.41).

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 03:08 pm: Edit

413.41 is about when you pay for supply, which is not the case under discussion, though.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 04:12 pm: Edit

501.5 seems to answer the question nicely - my thanks Rob.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 06:24 pm: Edit

It doesn't actually, because of the reference to 413.41.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 06:53 pm: Edit

It does, precisely because of the reference to 413.41.

501.5: Free, unless draw from partial grid. Black and white. The reference to 413.41 is obviously referring to the "unless drawn from a partial grid" clause.

413.41: Each EP will give supply including up to 5 ships and 12 fighters. So, if you are on a base and lack fighters, then pick 5 ships (which are in still in supply if they stay on the base - and will have supply even if they later leave the base) and have up to 12 replacement fighters for them per EP.

I cannot see any interpretation that doesn't have this result.

The "replacement fighters are free unless drawn from a partial grid" is as clear as day to me. That clarity alone resolves any possible ambiguity to the reference to 413.41.

If you seriously think this is ambiguous, then post a Q&A - but I would suggest that you explain why you think it's ambiguous.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 07:21 pm: Edit

413.41 says the fighters come with the EPs paid for supply. It does not say the fighters are paid for if the supply is free. That's what I'm saying.

It is ambiguous.

By Ken Rotar (Sir_Krotar) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 07:41 pm: Edit

I agree that the 501.5 reference does seem pretty clear cut. The ambiguity that I am pointing out--and that Richard is also pointing out--is that 413.41 deals with situations where supply is being paid for because the units being supplied are not in the hex of the starbase (i.e. when 5 units are paying 1EP for supply, they also receive 12 replacement fighters).

The confusion comes from the fact that in most of the rules regarding fighter replacement, it just mentions the obvious: the carrying unit must be in supply. However, when dealing with a partial grid, supply is handled differently depending on where the unit is in the grid.

I will post this in the Q&A to make sure that there is not in oversight in the rules.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 09:20 pm: Edit

I seem to vaguely recall somewhere there being something about bases or planets or some such being able to produce an unlimited amount of fighters. This might be relevant if anyone else can remember it?

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Doesn't seem ambiguous to me. 410.4 says ships stacked with a friendly base are always in supply.
Seems like that's true regardless of whether that base is in a supply grid or a partial supply grid.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 11:47 am: Edit

Randy, yes the *ships* are in supply - but supply isn't what dictates whether or not you get free fighters. What 501.5 says is that it's *connection to the main grid* that gets you free fighters (the fact that you also get supply by connection to the main grid is irrelevant to the free fighter issue). 501.5 gives you an alternative to get some replacement fighters if you happen to be in a partial grid.

I think the confusion here is the previously unwritten assumption that supply by itself dictates access to free fighters. Per 501.5 it doesn't. Free fighters come with connection to the main grid (which incidentally also produces supply).

Logically it works like so if you're sitting on a base in a partial grid:

-So long as the ships stay on the base or planet in a partial grid they are in supply, but they don't get free fighters. Note that the instant you jump off the base or planet, you will be out of supply (unless of course your movement puts you into supply some other way), so providing supply per 413.41 actually does matter.

-If you wish to purchase fighters for those otherwise supplied ships in the partial grid, then you must also supply those ships for purposes of 413.41, which will then benefit them if they leave the base or planet. So, each EP will provide supply for up to 5 ships and also provide 12 replacement fighters. Those 5 ships will then be in supply *even if* they move off the base or planet and also don't put themselves into supply some other way. They also happen to get 12 replacement fighters per EP.

-If the ships supplied per 413.41 remain at the base or planet - or pick up supply in some other way during the turn - then they're still in supply (this time by two different methods - one per 413.41 and the other by being at the planet or base). Supply by multiple methods is irrelevant - if you're in supply you're in supply. However, *fighters* are not provided by supply - they're provided by connection to the main grid. 501.5 and 413.41 now also allow such ships to get some fighters back (12 per EP).

This isn't ambiguous, it's simple logic.

Ambiguity results when two or more readings of the rules results, logically, in two or more different interpretations of the rules.

Here, there's not two different answers, there's just one.

Richard said, "It does not say the fighters are paid for if the supply is free." and then Richard concluded that this is what makes it ambiguous.

No, it's not ambiguous at all. Maybe it's not spelled out it so many words, but that alone doesn't make it ambiguous. If every alternative has to be spelled out then the rules would be monstrously long.

The rules don't have to say the fighters are paid for if the supply is free. The reason it doesn't have to say that is because 501.5 tells you *precisely* under what circumstances free fighters arise. You *only* get free fighters if you have a connection to the main grid. If you are in a partial grid, then use 413.41. Logic dictates that if you have connection to the main grid you get both supply and free fighters, but due to the black letter of 501.5 supply alone does not provide free fighters - connection to the main grid does.

So, no, it's not ambiguous. To be ambiguous there would have to be a reading of the rules where free fighters could come simply as a matter of being in supply - but that is not what 501.5 says. It tells you precisely when you get free fighters and provides an alternative if you don't meet the stated criteria.

Maybe the rule isn't *spelled out* for F&E lawyers like us - but it is not ambiguous because there's no other logical alternative to reading 501.5 (regardless of how 413.41 would work).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 11:52 am: Edit

FEDS or FEAR - please see my post above regarding Ken Rotar's official question. I believe it should provide the resolution.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Are there any other prior rulings on the issue of replacement fighters and/or the effects of being in supply on a friendly base or planet in a partial grid? I seem to recall such a ruling...

No opinions please -- just prior rulings.

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 - 07:26 pm: Edit

The way it is explained it makes sence however a person reading the rules in isolation can get confused because nowhere in the posted rule example's does it clearly and unambiguosly differentulate between supply for movement/combat and replacement for fighters being two totally different things. I will agree that the "1 EP gives 5 ships supplies and 12 free fighter factors" IMPLIES it how ever does it explicitly say in supply that it Does or Does not include fighters and does it explicitly say in all the ways to get replacement fighters that this is not the same as getting/being in supply?