That seems to be the case. It is a little weird, but it looks like all the rules support it.

From 1011, they could go through the Klingon/Lyran NZ and go to SB 0411 (or planet 0509 if the Hydrans get really saucy!), but they apparently can't go around the front way to help at the border BATS.

Playing this game for 20+ years now. Never actually noticed that till just now when my Coalition opponent was all "Can the Klingon Reserve go to 0413?"

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 07:23 pm: Edit

This has come up in Frigates for Cruisers.

The Feds have destroyed all the defenses at Kypruss (4 PDU) and devastated the planet on the current battle round at the end of the step where damage is allocated. There are no other defending units.

Is Kypruss captured the moment this occurs (prior to the retreat step)?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 07:25 pm: Edit

I thought we established (in DNS) that you can capture a planet and then immediately retreat, as the thing that captures the planet is it being devastated, having no PDU/RDU, and no defending units.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:09 pm: Edit

I couldn't recall if we Q&A'd it or not.

I did recall that you and I did do it that way.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Yeah, I think the rules are reasonably clear that you immediately capture the planet when it is devastated, has no PDU/RDU, and no defending units. So you can capture a planet on the last round of combat and then immediately retreat.

I don't remember if we got an official answer, and it is possible that there is a ruling that effectively changes this some way.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Sometimes one must just look to the rules...

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Quote:

(508.22) CAPTURING: If the planetary defenses are destroyed, and the planet is devastated, and all other defending units are eliminated from the hex, the planet has been captured.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 02:37 pm: Edit

That is the rule. I think it means that you CAN retreat after capturing a planet, but in your post above you do not actually indicate if you agree with that.

Could you offer an opinion as to whether I am correct?

It would be much appreciated.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 04:03 pm: Edit

From CL42 Q&A:

Q: Exactly when is a planet considered captured? Is it immediately upon satisfying the conditions of (508.22) or only after the entire Combat Phase is over? I’d say “immediately” because the rules do not have any provisos (e.g., “wait until the end of combat.”) Here is why this is important: The Coalition attacks Kzinti SB 0902, planet 1001, and all border BATS. During the Combat Phase the Coalition “captures” planet 1001 first and then destroys all border BATS except for 0701, and then elects to resolve 0902 (which also has a defending Kzinti fleet) before 0701. After a brutal battle, the Kzintis retreat from 0902. If 1001 stops being a Kzinti supply point immediately upon capture, then the Kzinti must retreat to 0801. If 1001 stops being a Kzinti supply point only at the end of the Combat Phase, then the Kzinti fleet at 0902 must retreat to 1001 (assuming the Kzintis are not outnumbered at 1001).

A: The planet ceases being in the control of the previous owner at the instant when there are no units belonging to that player in the hex and the capturing player has sufficient units to capture (or liberate) the planet in the hex. This is why it is important to select of the order in which you do resolution battles during the battle resolution in Phase 5.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 04:10 pm: Edit

FYI: One can search the BBS for a ruling on a specific rule question if one searches the BBS F&E section for that specific rule number.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Thanks Chuck.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 05:23 pm: Edit

On the Hydran turn 3 attack - I am sure it was ruled that an attack on one member of the Coalition put the Hydrans at war with the Coalition - i.e. it's not possible to be at war with just one of the current Coalition members.

Of course, like Peter, I might have been playing it wrong for 25 years.....

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 11:49 am: Edit

So I just posted this in questions:

(307.31) Pursuit Battle Pursued Force

When a pursued force has, say, a crippled 4 point FF (with a defense of 2 due to being crippled) in it that is in excess of the pursued main battle force that is being used in combat (i.e. "extra crippled ships"), if the pursuing force has an extra point of damage left over to resolve and there are no ships in the main pursued battle force that have a defense value of less than 3, is the pursued force required to resolve that point of damage (either by killing the crippled FF or some other unit, or crippling an uncrippled ship in the main battle force)?

Can crippled carriers that have fighters on them that are in the pursued force, but not the main pursued battle force (i.e. also "extra crippled ships") use those fighters to absorb damage in the pursuit battle?

For clarification, as it is what is likely an easy question that is difficult to quickly describe:

Ok. I am being pursued. My force that is caught in pursuit is:

C8, D6M, D6D, 8xd5 (where "d5" is a crippled D5).

and then over and above that, I have 4xd5, 4xf5, 4xe4, d6v, 2xe4a (i.e. all crippled ships that are not in the main battle force).

The pursuing force does 13 damage. It uses that 13 damage to direct kill a d5 for 8, and then an e4a (not on the main battle force) for 4. There is 1 point of damage left over. 1 point of damage is enough to force a crippled e4 to blow up if it were on the main battle line, so is am I forced to resolve the 1 point of damage (either by killing an e4, or some other ship, or crippling one of the uncrippled ships on the line)? And if so, can the crippled d6v give up a fighter (that is also not in the main battle force) to resolve that 1 point?

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 12:49 pm: Edit

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(307.31) CREATION: The retreating player must form his Battle Force as follows: First include all crippled ships, then add up to three uncrippled ships. From this force, designate a flagship. If the Battle Force exceeds the Command Rating, the force is used as is although excess ships (selected by the owner) do not count in the combat potential but can be damaged. If the Battle Force does not exceed the Command Rating of the flagship, additional uncrippled ships may be added up to the maximum rating.
=================

So Yes, such a crippled frigate is "in the battleforce" even though it is not contributing combat potential. So it would be part of that retreating battle force for all the normal damage rules. It would force you to resolve that last damage point, and I believe you could use the fighter factor to resolve it, as that unit is still "in the battle force" even if it is "in excess" and not contributing combat potential.

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 12:52 pm: Edit

There is no "main battle force" or "pursued battle force", (these terms are not used in the rule anywhere) there is just the "battle force", some of which is perhaps not counting its combat potential, but all of which are potential damage/targets. The only other entity besides the "battle force" is the "reserves" which are all ships not in the battle force, and in the case of a pursued force can only consist of uncrippled ships. Reserve ships can never be used to resolve damage.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Ok, so on a conceptual level, *all* the crippled ships in a pursued force are in the battle force (I was just using those two terms for the clarity of my question, not 'cause they were actual terms :-), just only some of them are contributing attack factors.

So if there is 1 point of damage left over, and there are some crippled ships with a defense factor of 2 (i.e. e4s or whatever), even if they aren't contributing attack factors, that 1 point of damage needs to be resolved. But on the other hand, if there are crippled carriers that have some fighters, those fighters can absorb that damage anyway (even if the carriers are not contributing attack factors). That all makes perfect sense now. Thanks!

(I have been playing this game consistently for 20+ years now, and still every once and a while I look at things and go "Huh. I'm not sure how that actually is supposed to work...")

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Hmmm, looking at the carrier w/ fighters, the fighters are kinda like those left onboard under (302.334) and would therefore not be eligible to take damage...

I don't think pursuit changes that...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 07:39 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Q442.323 How do you rectify this rule with 435.222? 442.323 says that EP are loaded at the start of Operational or Strategic movement and unloaded at the end, suggesting it takes 2 turns for a 'round trip' drop off of EP's from one Empire to another, pick up T X, drop off at end of T X Opp or Strat movement, return X+1. While 442.322 says that a round trip could be done in one turn?

Am sure this has been asked, would appreciate someone pointing me to the right answer.

BB

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By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 08:49 pm: Edit

>>Hmmm, looking at the carrier w/ fighters, the fighters are kinda like those left onboard under (302.334) and would therefore not be eligible to take damage... >>

Why would that be the case, unless there were more than 18 fighters available? Like, if you have, say, 8 crippled Kzinti CVs in your pursued force, you couldn't have more than 18 fighters in the force (so the remaining 6 fighters would not be available), but why would the first 18 not be around to take damage on, even if they weren't contributing attack factors?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 06:37 am: Edit

So the crippled carrier could be directed on even though its not in the chosen battleforce, but the fighters in the crippled carrier couldnt be used to absorb damage?

Seems not quite right...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 08:28 am: Edit

The carrier could be directed on. However it would be under GEDS (308.1) to get to the carrier.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 09:42 am: Edit

fv+e4a would only require 10 damage to destroy.

And the 2 fighters on the fv could not be used to soak any damage.

Which, as above, seems not quite right.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 11:24 am: Edit

Any carrier not in the battleforce and not in the support group does not have fighters deployed. A crippled carrier included in the battleforce only by the "pursuing all cripples" rule still has no fighters deployed.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Presumably whatever command problems prevent it from effectively using its weapons also prevent it from effectively deploying its fighters for fleet defense.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Huh. This seems a weird and kind of arbitrary new rule. But at least it is a clear rule :-)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 07:04 pm: Edit

it is not an arbitrary new rule. It has been that way since DF&E 93 if not before then. Crippled maulers outside of the battleforce have been killed this way before.