David Kass:

I believe you are mistaken on this point.

I don't think there is any long-term distinction between a web with anchors and a globular (self-anchored) web. If there were, how would Tholian bases have three-tier wedding cakes around them? A number of scenarios mention the Tholians using asteroids for anchors but the web rules themselves seem explicit that these anchors are not necessary for base defense scenarios.

A 0-strength web normally disintegrates after 7 turns with no energy applied. The closest SFB ever comes to explaining long-term web maintenance is the statement that the Tholians use some kind of satellite, which, apparently keeps 0-strength webs from disintegrating. The satellite is not further defined within SFB and is not represented by any unit in a base defense. Note also that according to the rules for determining web strength at different weapon status levels (don't have my books handy so can't cite exact rule number) even a base caught completely by surprise will be surrounded by 0-strength webs. Obviously these webs could not have been laid immediately before the scenario started. They have been there for some time. And again, the web rules themselves make clear that asteroids for these webs are an option that the Tholians do not have to buy if they don't want to.

So I believe your interpretation is incorrect and the Tholians, through the means of these vaguely defined satellites, can maintain 0-strength globular webs for long periods of time. At any rate, I can't find anything within the web rules that supports your interpretation.

Your point about keeping asteroids in position near a planet is a good one, but that is only one of many areas where actual physics have had to yield to game mechanics. The SFB rules on orbits in general fall into this category since such orbits are (real-world) impossible. In this, SFB is like the show itself.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit

In F&E, monitors must be placed at planets.
In F&E, there is only 1 tholian planet.
In F&E, there are 2 at start Tholian monitors.

Therefore, Tholia (in F&E) will ALWAYS have 2 monitors (until they are destroyed).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Tony Barnes, et al:

One final F&E point - In F&E Tholian bases AND PLANETS are always protected by the web rules.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Somewhere (and I do not have the time to find it--I want to say it was a CL "why" answer), there is a discussion of long term web maitenance. The upshot is that it is done by web maintainers (I don't recall the actual name). These maintainers have to be installed on web anchors (either bouys or asteroids). Thus without the anchors, there is no long term web. As I recall, all "defined" bases use anchors for their webs, not true globular webs.

Furthermore, monitors are for defending places that need some defenses, but it is either no cost effective to give them permanent defenses or the permanent defenses are not yet completed. As such, there wouldn't be a web in place (either it isn't cost effective or it hasn't been installed yet).

The asteroids/anchors cannot be orbiting and be web anchors (anchors cannot move). SFB requires objects near planets to be in orbit (otherwise they crash into the planet). Thus they cannot be used in SFB already.

I realize F&E badly mangles the role of monitors (they should be at planets not on the F&E map). And in the case of the Tholians, the situation is particularly unusual. This is no reason to push such twisting back into SFB.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 06:25 pm: Edit

David Kass:

I don't recall the discussion you're citing, so I can't comment very much on it until I read it.

But...

1. If it was in an early CL, the SFB rules have undergone many revisions on many topics since then, and those rules may no longer be valid. The web rules themselves changed between the Commander's and Captain's editions.

2. This doesn't address the point I made earlier, in the response to Tony Barnes, that the current F&E rules specify that all Tholian bases and planets are defended by webs. This would seem to imply that either the Tholians have some way of keeping asteroids stationary in the vicinity of planets (positional stabilizers on the asteroids perhaps?) or that globular webs can be maintained at 0-strength for long periods. Again, based solely on the current web rules, and not recalling the CL discussion you mention, I have to believe the latter is possible, though that doesn't preclude the former (positional stabilizers on asteroids) being possible as well. There may be something in the discussion of positional stabilizers that prevents them from working on asteroids large enough to anchor webs. I really don't remember.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 06:58 pm: Edit

When you have the technology to operate and maintain a Dyson Sphere I seriously doubt asteroid station-keeping is a major problem for you.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit

(519.11): The Tholians are allowed to have both of their at-start monitors at their capital, as it's their only planet.

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Please use this thread for any other Tholian ideas. OK.

Do the Tholians have auxiliary ships in SFB? Why don’t they have some Aux-carriers or better yet some Aux-scouts in F&E?

I know that they have access to the freighter hulls that Aux-ships are based on because they start with some FTSs. I also believe the Feds give them small freighters for those web-tender things, right?

The Tholians could really use some SAVs and/or LAVs and most importantly they really need a few SAS/ LAS. Why doesn’t the premier defensive race in the game have such defensive units? Look, even the non-fighter Lyrans have some SAV/LAVs, the Tholians should have some too.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Alan, remember that they have lost the technology to buld the Dyson Sphere and it is unclear how hard it is to maintain...

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

John,
By (707.3), the Tholians are allowed Auxiliary builds - so they must have them in SFB.

I agree they probably should start with a couple of auxes (LAS + SAV maybe), but it's probably too late to do anything now...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 12:37 am: Edit

Tholian LAV and SAV for F&E are in countersheet L (Combined Operations).

For SFB, Tholian auxillaries are scattered among several products. Module R1 has Aux PFTs (pages 71-72 of SSD book) and Module J has Aux Carriers (pages 13-14 of SSD book).

David Kass:

Rule G10.8 is "WEBS SET UP BEFORE A SCENARIO". The opening paragraph of G10.8 makes clear that the rule refers to webs that have been in place for a long period of time and kept at 0-strength by "low-power generator bouys". And the last sentence of G10.821 makes it clear that these webs can be globular. On re-reading this rule, I still believe your interpretation that long term webs require asteroid anchors is incorrect. I suspect the discussion of long-term web maintenance that you alluded to earlier was a Commander's Edition interpretation and is superceded by the current G.10 rules.

Ultimately, I think we're just going to have agree to disagree on this one.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 05:59 am: Edit

While it has been rounded on, I'd just like to make one final comment re: Tholian cruiser escort.

It would be a relatively minor modification. All you have to do is replace 2DSR with Ph-1 and put in Aegis. You might even be able to make it escort-qualified by simply adding Aegis.

As for monitors, for some strange reason, I always assumed they would be present at some tholian bases. In any case, I would certainly think that web would very much alter monitor deployment by the tholians compared to other races. For a start, it is worth it for the tholians to put pods on their monitors.

Thankyou John for putting in a new idea- I specifically asked ppl to add in new ideas as the number of topics in this area is getting quite high. They really need organising into subject areas.

I guess the tholians do not get auxs on their inital OOB simply because their peacetime construction budget could not justify them. Certainly a LAV and LAS look like very good purchases if they have the money. The tholian EW situation is otherwise pretty dire until the CWS turns up.

Incidently, that's another reason why I proposed the CE - there is alot of pressure on those initial CW hulls for all sorts of variants, and escort is only one of them.

What has definately come out of this is that we should lobby SVC for the tholian DE to be in FO.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:09 am: Edit

re: Tholian Aux ships:

Reading (707.1) Turn 10+ (even turns), is one ship of any type except CVA. So LAS/AuxCVs could easily be built then. Apparently before Turn 10, the Tholians were concentrating on Line Ships.

Go figure.

re: Escort Cruiser.

They already have one that is almost similar to that, it's called the CPA or Phaser Cruiser. For defending bases behind web, it removes the Disruptors and replaces them with P-1s (so 8P-1s total), it just doesn't have Aegis what you are looking for.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:15 am: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

CPA has 10 Ph-1s, not 8. Original Tholian C had 6 Ph-1 and 2 Disr. CA added 2 additional Disr. CPA is based on CA and replaces all 4 Disr with Ph-1. SSD (IIRC, don't have books handy) is in Module R-6.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

Auxes are non-ship units, so wouldn't qualify. You did have me going for a moment though.

However, I just can't see choosing any ship other than a DN as my 1 free ship (other than LAV/LAS if possible).

"Hmm, let's see, I get to pick anything..." (said in best kid-in-a-candy-store voice)

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

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Quote:

What has definately come out of this is that we should lobby SVC for the tholian DE to be in FO.

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By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

F&E already has a CWE escort (6-7/3-4 heavy escort). The CWA would probably just fall into the "upgrades aren't shown in F&E - they are assumed in the factors" arguement.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit

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Quote:

F&E already has a CWE escort (6-7/3-4 heavy escort).

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By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 11:44 am: Edit

Yeah - this is pretty much all just a theoretical discussion...

Either the Tholians are never involved until after the game ends anyway (as someone won already)
or
The Tholians are wiped out in 1 turn by the Klingon/Romulans in a massive invasion.

No sense in attacking the Tholians if you won't do it right.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Tholian SFB/F&E heavy fighter anomoly:

In Module J-2, the Tholians got a Scout Carrier for their heavy fighters. AFAIK, this ship is not in F&E.

The only heavy fighter carrier the Tholians have in F&E is a version of the CVA that carries one fighter squadron and one heavy fighter squadron. This CHV (can't remember whether that's the correct designation) is not, AFAIK, in SFB.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Scout Carriers are not officially in F+E, YET

Playtest stuff is in CL24 (stat's and costs)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

Thanks, I'll check there.

Of course, since I mostly play SFB and use F&E for background information and campaign ideas, what I really want to know is when will the CHV (or whatever it is) be included in SFB...

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Alan: It probably won't be (as a separate SSD that is - unless Module CVG were to have it). There is a rule in SFB which allows any CV to replace it's standard fighters with Heavy Fighters as they are available. This is similar to the note that some SCSs started out operating Heavy Fighters before switching over to Interceptors and PFs.

Now that Heavy Fighters are in F&E, they introduced the CHV (or whatever) to support the SFB rule.⁴²

By Alexander Pitman (Dassadec) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 04:07 pm: Edit

What about using Lagrange point Asteroids for anchors. If nothing else then at least one side of a planet could be protected.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit

The solar Lagrange points are all WAY to far away, lunar lagrange points will depend on the presence and location of the moon(s). Note that L4 and L5 are as far away as the involved moon, while L1, L2, and L3 are not all that convienently located and are unstable equilibriums, so they are not really any better than a free orbit.