| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 - 07:55 pm: Edit |
Chuck and I are about to cross post but we just had a great chat and came up with a solution to the Madness of King Howard.
1. You can only increase by one pod.
2. You pay for increased capability (AF, DF, EW, etc.). No attempt is made to track specific pods.
3. If a conversion removes a capability (e.g., you convert a scout to a commando ship) then you lose it and get no credit. There will be no "stockpile of removed pods".
4. No unconverting or downgrading.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:39 pm: Edit |
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:47 pm: Edit |
DONE 26 MAY 2017
549.121 references
JAP build cost is missing "(549.121)" reference. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
JAS build cost is missing "(549.121)" reference. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
JSC build cost is missing "(549.121)" reference. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
ASC build cost is missing "(549.121)" reference. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:48 pm: Edit |
SENT TO RYAN 26 MAY 2017
JAP should there be an AF/EW combo that allows only 1EW? JSC has one. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
SENT TO RYAN 26 MAY 2017
Accounting loopholes:
JVH conversion cost from JAux? needs to account for 16 FTR factors added instead of only 14 of them. "From JAux?: 2+16". Cost as is means building JAA for 6 and converting it to a JVH (2+14) (total is 6+2+14) costs 1 less than a direct build (7+16). - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
Edit- corrected this from 0+2 to 0+4 for JAV.
JVH conversion cost from JAV needs to account for 4 FTR factors added instead of only 2 of them. "From JAV: 0+4". As things are, direct build of JVH is 7+16, while JAV is 7+12, and then JAV->JVH is 0+2, which is 2EPs less. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
LYH conversion cost from LAV doesn't account for FTR added and is more costly than LAH (which is a similar ship). Perhaps it is "1+2"? - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:52 pm: Edit |
PROCESSED
Accounting inconsistencies:
ASCA conversion from LAV- we are adding 9H (for 18), and removing 6 FTR (credit of 6). Total of 12, so LAV source should be "From LAV: 5+0+12". This makes the cost consistent with the JAV/JSCA and HAV/HSCA. Or fix the JAV/HAV to be +18 instead of +12. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25 SENT TO RYAN
SYH build cost should be 8 for 8 FTR factors, not 9. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25 DONE
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:53 pm: Edit |
DONE 26 MAY 2017
HVH Notes have SAV/SAA conversions that are no longer legal. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
LAP The note of "No cloak" for a Federation ship is a given. Remove. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:54 pm: Edit |
SENT TO RYAN 26 MAY 2017
LAH conversion from LYH (replacing F101 with F111, adding special sensors) should be a legal conversion path. Suggest "From LYH: 2+10" based upon LAV conversion (1+10 would also be reasonable). - Howard Bampton 2017-05-25
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 11:45 pm: Edit |
DONE 26 MAY 2017
LAA: CHANGE Factors to read: 3-4/1-2 | Rationale: these factors were established and printed on counters in Module ME.
SAA: CHANGE Factors to read: 2/0-1 | Rationale: these factors were established and printed on counters in Module ME.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 06:27 am: Edit |
SENT TO RYAN 26 MAY 2017
LAH: Conversion from: LYH: 0+10 Rational: Carriers that change from standard fighters (6) to heavy fighters (8H) are only charged the difference in factors 0+4, e.g. Kzinti CV to CVH. F-111s on Aux Carriers pay the full price under (527.131). Thomas Mathews 26 May 2017
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 07:13 pm: Edit |
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 08:19 pm: Edit |
Shouldn't the large aux troopship be 'LAT' instead of 'FAT'??
The SAP entry is hiding (the Feds don't think it exists)...
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 08:56 pm: Edit |
HAH Consersion from FTJ- troop ship to CV doesn't seem to be covered for other cases. JAH doesn't have it, for example. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-30
ASC/LSC Conversion from SAux needs to be defined. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-30
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 09:01 pm: Edit |
General- there are a score or so of conversions that cost 4+ which may be considered minor conversions but which are not so marked (the JAC is the one that has such symbols). Review by staff needed. - Howard Bampton 2017-05-30
There are some inconsistencies in conversion costs between hulls (LAA/LAC/Lfoo have a spread, HAA/HAC/Hfoo have the same one, and JAA/JAC/Jfoo have a different one). Untangling that is going to take some more work (*AP and *AS are the two I've spotted). These may take a few hours to work out and cross check.
FEDS: The issues with *AS/*AP may well be in regard to the originating ship and its starting EW rating AND the EW rating of the final product.
SAS=2EW
LAS=3EW
JAS=3EW
HAS=3EW
SAP=1EW
LAP=2EW
JAP=2EW
HAP=2EW
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 09:13 pm: Edit |
Let me know when you guys are done figuring it out.
| By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 09:33 pm: Edit |
Are the ASC/ASCA, JSC/JSCA, and HSC/HSCA switched for the Federation? In FO16, (527.24) says the Federation ASC carries F111. (As is published counter?) Also refers to the JASC and HASC as the jumbo and heavy versions.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 02:37 am: Edit |
I did that from memory and, well....
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:13 am: Edit |
OK, I looked at the build costs for the *AS, *AP, and SCS (ftr or PF) versions. They have what look to be quirks and may be why the conversion costs seem "off". The "supporting evidence" is too long winded to do as a line item, so I'll do one post per class.
The SAS has 2EW and costs 4.
The LAS has 3EW and costs 6 (3 more than the LAA)
The JAS has 3EW and costs 11 (5 more than the JAA)
The HAS has 3EW and costs 12 (4 more than the HAA)
The JAS and HAS are more durable and have non-zero AFs which one could argue make them more valuable than the LAS, even though all three units have the same EW. I do not see how the JAS should have a 5 point surcharge vs. the base hull, while the HAS only rates a 4 point one. IMO, the scout surcharge should be 4 (or 5) for both, or the JAA should have a smaller one than the HAA.
Once we change or reject these numbers, then evaluating the conversion costs makes sense.
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:18 am: Edit |
*AP build cost review.
The SAP (lifted from old SITs, but presumably correct)- 4 (1EW)- 2 more than the SAA
The LAP- 6 (2EW)- 3 more than the LAA
The JAP- 11 (2EW)- 5 more than the JAA
The HAP- 11 (2EW)- 3 more than the HAA
Looking at the patterns, I think the JAP is overpriced and should cost 9. In any case, the JAP and HAP should not both cost 11.
In review, make sure that cost spread between scout and PFT versions is similar across all 3 classes (same cost or PFT costing 1-2 more).
Edited to correct bad math on my part for the LAP and revise conclusion accordingly. Re-edited to add SC/PFT cross check
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:35 am: Edit |
AuxSCS with F111's cost review.
Small version- hull too small.
Large version- 8 (5 more than LAA), 2 more than PFT version.
Jumbo version- 10 (4 more than JAA), 1 _less_ than PFT version (but I've flagged the PFT version's cost as suspect).
Huge version- 12 (4 more than HAA), 1 more than PFT version.
I'm not sure if the surcharge drop from 5 on the large version to 4 on the jumbo and huge versions makes sense.
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:47 am: Edit |
AuxSCS with PFs cost review
All units have the same EW.
Small version- hull too small.
Large version- 7 (4 more than LAA, 1 less than FTR version)
Jumbo version- 12 (6 more than JAA, 2 more than FTR version)
Huge version- 13 (5 more than HAA, 1 more than FTR version)
These numbers are all over the place so I'm not sure what to suggest as a fix. Why is the Large hull with PFs cheaper than the one carrying F111's, while the jumbo and huge ones are more expensive? Why does the surcharge spike for the jumbo model?
| By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 10:56 am: Edit |
General review notes-
*AA costs are plausible based upon increasing cost for more durable hull
*AC costs are plausible
*AV costs are plausible if one assumes that the cost is a surcharge vs. the base hull (1 in all cases except the small one which has fewer fighters)
*AT (troop transport) costs are plausible using the surcharge model and allowing for capability bump between small and large hulls
The *AS, *AP, and SCS hulls are where this breaks down.
Build cost review complete. Review of conversion costs on hold pending thumbs up/down of build costs.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 11:40 am: Edit |
Like I said, let me know when Chuck & Ryan have decided all of that. Like you, I think the AS, AP, and SCS costs are out of whack.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 12:07 pm: Edit |
Any Aux carrying F-111s pays 2EP per F-111 fighter factor. See (527.131). Obviously this changes if you are using the pay as you go system under (527.16).
Previous Q&A research requested by FEDS and done by me posted in the Q&A topic is here
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 01:02 pm: Edit |
Here are the raw numbers for the conversions from Jumbo to Heavy from my personal worksheet:
| 3-8/1-4 | 9-8/5-4 | 6-8(12)/3-4(6) | --- | 6-8*/3-4 | 5-8GGGG/3-4GG | --- | 6-8RR/3-4 | 6-8(10V6)/3-4(5V3) | 6-8(9H6)/3-4(4.5H3) | 6-8(8Y6)/3-4(4Y3) | 6-8*(9H6)/3-4(4.5H3) | 6-8P*(6)/3-4P(3) | 6-8P*/3-4P | ------ | ||
| HAA | HAC | HAV | HCV? | HAS | FTH (HAG) | HCG? | HAR | HVH | HAH | HYH | HSC | HSCA | HAP | FHH (HAM) | ||
| 3-6/1-3 | JAA | 2p | 2p+4c | 2p+1c+12f | 2p+1c+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+1c+16 | 2p+1c+1h+6f+18F | 2p+1c+14 | 2p+1c+2ew+1h+6f+18F | 2p+1c+3pft+2EW+6+¶ | 2p+1c+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 8-6/4-3 | JAC | 2p | 2p | 2p+12f | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+14 | 2p+2ew+1h+6f+18F | 2p+3pft+2EW+6+¶ | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6(12)/2-3(6) | JAV | 2p | 4p | 2p | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+4v | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+2y | 2p+2ew+1h+12F | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 6(6)/3(3) | JCV | 2p | 2p+6f | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+18F | 2p+8y | 2p+2ew+1h+18F | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+3pft+2ew+¶ | 2p+1m | ||||
| 4-6*/2-3 | JAS | 2p | 4p | 2p+12f | 2p | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+14 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+3pft+6f+¶ | 2p+3pft+1EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 3-6GGGG/1-3GG | FTJ (JAG) | 2p | 2p+4c | 2p+12f | 2p+1c+3EW | 2p | 2p+2r | 2p+1c+16 | 2p+1c+1h+6f+18F | 2p+1c+14 | 2p+1c+2ew+1h+6f+18F | 2p+1c+3pft+2EW+6+¶ | 2p+1c+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 6GG/3G | JCG | 2p | 2p+12f | 2p+3EW | 2p+1g | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+14 | 2p+2ew+1h+6f+18F | 2p+3pft+2EW+6+¶ | 2p+3pft+2ew+¶ | 2p+1m | ||||
| 4-6RR/2-3 | JAR | 2p | 4p | 2p+12f | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+14 | 2p+2ew+1h+6f+18F | 2p+3pft+2EW+6+¶ | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6(10V6)/2-3(5V3) | JVH | 2p | 4p | 2p | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p | 2p+1h+8F | 2p | 2p+2ew+1h+8F | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+3pft+2ew+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6(9H6)/2-3(4.5H3) | JAH (Fed only) | 2p | 4p | 2p | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p | 2p | 2p | 2p+2ew | 2p+3pft+2ew¶ | 2p+3pft+2ew+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6(8Y6)/2-3(4Y3) | JYH (JAH Others) | 2p | 4p | 2p | 2p+3EW | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+2v | 2p+1h+10F | 2p | 2p+2ew+10F | 2p+3pft+2EW+¶ | 2p+3pft+2ew+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6*(9H6)/2-3(4.5H3) | JSC (Fed Only) | NA | NA | 2p | 2p+1ew | NA | NA | 2p | 2p | 2p | 2p | 2p+3pft+¶ | 2p+3pft+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6P*(6)/2-3P(3) | JSCA | NA | NA | 2p+6f | 2p+1ew | NA | NA | 2p+10v | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+8y | 2p+1h+0+18F | 2p | 2p+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 4-6P*/2-3P | JAP | 2p | 4p | 2p+12f | 2p+1ew | 2p+2g | 2p+2r | 2p+16 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2p+14 | 2p+1h+6f+18F | 2+6f | 2p+1EW+¶ | 2p+1m | ||
| 0-6M/0-3 | FHJ (JAM) | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | x | 2p |
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