Chuck,

But you cannot do that, as it violates the flagship selection rules.

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As an out however, a player could send just the fighters into battle and withhold the FF and then simple retreat the FF after the first round of battle...

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Each player secretly selects one of his units to be the flagship of the Battle Force. (A base can be a flagship, but is still treated as a "non-ship unit".) This must be one of the three units with the highest Command Ratings.

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Units with a Command Rating of zero may be used as flagships (if they are one of the three highest rated) while units with no Command Rating (marked "NA or '-") can never be.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Balance wise that would make it easier for pickets to survive, which is perhaps not a good thing for the game.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Wouldn't it make sense then to use crippled pickets because iirc you can excuse crippled ships from flagship selection?

Or do cripples go back in if there are no other options?

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Crippled units may be excused from the flagship selection process (302.32), but in that case they would not be exempt from being put on the line per the Minimum Force Calculations (302.36).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Crippled frigates cannot react, which makes them poor pickets in many cases, due to how pickets sometimes react together when attacked so fewer are lost.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Thank you Chuck. I was totally overthinking the situation. With only the 2 Ship Equivalents. I only have to put one on the line. The other is the rejected Flagship candidate and therefore excused.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I don't think fighters can be rejected flagship candidates if they can't be flagships (having no command rating and so on).

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 07:57 pm: Edit

OK, what this boils down to is that the fighters aren't a flagship so the FF MUST be in the battle and the fighters may be...(of course, there has to be only one enemy ship else the fighter couldn't withdraw anyway)...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Only one fighter squadron can be with a single frigate.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 09:31 am: Edit

IIRC...

(Rules not with me).

Chuck is correct as Fighters CAN be a Flagship

Somewhere in the rules it confirms a Battleline made up only of fighters has a CR of 3 (?) - and so 3 squadrons of fighters can legally be used in a battle line.

I agree it probably may need to be made clearer that deemed CR rating can be used when selecting flagship eligibility.

Perhaps the Warbook could have some examples of Legal and illegal Battle line plus legal and illegal withdrawals.

Examples 3 x DN and a CA (none-crippled) - illegal battle line would be a CA or withdrawing the 3 DN's (as the 3 DN's have the highest CR rating).

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 10:10 am: Edit

If a battleline is made up ONLY of fighters, the fighters have a CR of 3. But a frigate and fighters... I dunno if the fighters would have a CR at all. If not, the ship must stay.

Regardless, I think the fighters should be able to cover for the ship's retreat. Seems like a logical military action, IMO.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 11:37 am: Edit

Fighters can not be flagships, ever. If there are ONLY fighters in a battle hex, then they are considered to have a CR of 3, but they would still not be a flagship.

Refer to 302.32. Fighters have a Command Rating of "-", which per the rule means they can never be a flagship.

Also 302.322 states: "If the only units in one "fleet" are fighters and/or PFs, that player has no flagship but three ship equivalents may be in the Battle Force; see (303.7). Note that this paragraph cannot apply if there are any ships or bases in the hex."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Seems like Rob has the black and white of the rules on his side on this one.

Not that this is worth much - but Rob's position has been my understanding since, well, when I tried this same thing on Rob way back in 2008.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 01:49 pm: Edit

So the poor little frigate always dies.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Yup pretty much. Picket bleed is just a fact of life for the Coalition. You can do things to minimize that, but it's just part of the game and fits into overall balance.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Don't feel too bad. I got bit because I missed that PDUs can also never be flagships, even though they have a CR of 0.

We are always learning!

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Two units to choose from. FF with CR=3, Independent Fighter Squadron with CR=0. The FF is the rejected flagship candidate.

FF doesn't die.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Thomas, Rob's point is that the independent fighter factors, having a command rating of "-" cannot be considered for the flagship position. Thus, the FF is the *only* available flagship, and as such it must appear on the line.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, August 25, 2017 - 08:56 am: Edit

Thomas, Ted has it exactly right. And the rules are very clear on the issue. A CR of "-" , means they can never be a flagship.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, August 25, 2017 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Ted:

One could send JUST the fighters to an approach battle -- if applicable -- and leave the frigate back...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 25, 2017 - 11:39 pm: Edit

You'd have to send a flag ship if their was an eligible ship in the hex.

Also, if you only send one or two ships, you can only send one or two squadrons of attrition units (in such a case). This is in 302.36 which also has a confusing sentence that makes no sense whatsover ('unless there are not enough ships present to make up their required portion (if any) *what required portion I ask* and see (303.7) *independant squadrons with no ships/bases*.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 07:38 am: Edit

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 09:48 pm: Edit

I don't have the rules with me atm.

Concerning the free fighter factors provided by the Old Colonies shipyard, can the Hydrans use them to pay for fighters needed for units converted offmap that were not produced by the old colony shipyard on that turn?

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these can be accumulated but can only be used for ships built in the old shipyard.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 10:40 am: Edit

I read it that way too, but I play devil's advocate and ask myself, how would I make that make sense to a recalcitrant Hydran opponent, and I can't come up with anything.

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Regard the free hybrid fighter factors in the OCS, I agree with Thomas that they cannot be used for conversions, they must be used for ships produced there, alas.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:43 pm: Edit

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 02:46 am: Edit

I'm inclined to discuss the following:

CURRENT RULE
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans or Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).

CHANGE TO READ
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with both the Romulans and the Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).

THEN ADD THE FOLLOWING:

(603.123) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side). However, if the Klingons or Lyrans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Klingon or Lyran attack.

(603.124) If the Federation starts a war with the Klingons or the Lyrans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side) or if the Romulans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Romulan attack.

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By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Grammar aside, I think the above represents a sensible change, however, I do wonder if 603.54 should be updated with the wording for 603.123 and 603.124 as well.

If I saw 603.54 Im not sure I would know to go to 603.123/4 to see the extended info.

Cheers.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:09 am: Edit

Personally I think the wording should be updated. Otherwise, it's open to abuse by the Coalition.