Peter

I would slightly disagree with Thomas. If a drone bombardment ship is being used, it can only be in the Drone Bombardment box if it is using Drones - - but you can dial it between 1 and the maximum (usually 4).

i.e. - If it doesn't use atleast 1 point of drone bombardment - the ship in effect has been illegally placed.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Paul, it has to be placed in the echelon for the possible use of drone bombardment at the time the battle force is created. The actual amount of drone bombardment is determined later in the combat phase. See (105.0-M17) Phase 5 Step 3H and (105.0-M17) Phase 5 Step 4G.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 05:23 pm: Edit

DBB points are allocated in 5-3F when you build your battleforce.

5-3F: Each combat round, players secretly build a battle force
allocating such things as:
• Elements: warships, scouts, drone bombardment ships
and points, rescue tugs, hospital ships, etc.
• Groups: FEGs, CVEGs, battle groups, gunline groups,
tactical auxiliary groups, form pinwheels (322.11).
• Tasks: assign prime teams (522.34) and missions, assign
MMG missions (321.3); purchase and assign one GCE
to a ship (521.81) (321.32), transfer ADMs/MMGs
(316.144), designate units that are “in the web” (512.31),
Romulans secretly record specific battle force location
of units assigned a cloaked decoy (538.34), ISC
determine the number of core formation positions
available to a battle force using the echelon formation
(324.2).

Use of DBB is revealed in 5-3G simultaeneously with (among a lot of other things) revelation of battle forces.

5-3H: All players simultaneously announce their battle force
deployments identified in step 5-3F including use of:
• Command points (308.92) including ADMs and MMGs that
provide extra command positions.
• Amount of drone bombardment (309.0) points assigned.
• Formation bonus (308.7).
• Scout formation bonus (308.53).
• Cloaked decoys to provide a formation bonus (538.54).
• ISC core formation positions (324.21).
• Uncrippled ships to tow web-trapped, crippled units from
web (512.32).

I don't see anywhere that says you cancel DBB after seeing your opponent's battleforce.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 06:22 pm: Edit

You have to announce that your using Drone Bombardment, not how much DB you are using. That is done under 5-4G

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Note that 'zero' IS an amount for DB usage...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Yeah, see, it doesn't seem like there is a cut and dry answer here.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Peter, you have to include them as targets. You don't have to expend the EPs for the DB compot.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 11:28 pm: Edit

5-3F says to allocate drone bombardment ships AND points.

So yes, you do have to allocate HOW MUCH DBB you are doing BEFORE seeing the enemy battle force when doing that simultaneously with the opponent.

Looking at the SOP on these forums, 5-4G doesn't seem to have anything to do with drone bombardment allotment or announcement.

5-4G: Calculation of Combat Potential.
5-4G1: Determine possible effects of SWACs on drone
bombardment (518.42), SWAC protection (518.33)
(518.36), attack factors nullified by IPGs (328.22), and any
results from an honor duel (528.431).
5-4G2: Announce use of stolen war plans to gain +1 BIR
(534.243).
5-4G3: Announce use of captured ships to gain +1 die roll
modifier (305.21).
5-4G4: Roll die to determine damage coefficient (302.42).
Initially deployed ADMs reveal their effectiveness (316.22).
See (308.6) for combining die roll modifiers. See (321.34)
for optional MMG effectiveness.
5-4G5: Determine combat damage result based on BIR, die
roll, and any shifts, e.g., EW, Wild SWAC; see (308.51)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Clearly looking at the SOP from these forums, you allocate DBB points in 5-3F and announce them in 5-3H, as quoted above in my post at 5:23pm EST.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 04:47 am: Edit

I think the practical point is - if the Drone ship doesn't fire off drones (1+), the ship can't have been in the Battle Force...

....and the defender has the right to see the attacking battle force.

Also, remember - even if no enemy ships turn up - a battle is still fought (against the RDU).

The techno babble is fairly easily - the Drone Ships start firing long range drones to support the main battle force as it gets near the planet. As intel comes in about the strengths of the defences (or lack of them), the drone ships increase or decrease the amount of drones they are firing.

On rules - 309.32 states you can reduce the factors used to reduce the cost - 'a drone ship could use only some of it's factors to reduce the cost'.

I don't believe using '0' is therefore within the permitted range.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 08:00 am: Edit

"On rules - 309.32 states you can reduce the factors used to reduce the cost - 'a drone ship could use only some of it's factors to reduce the cost'. "

Yeah, but it is unclear if you can do this after determining your battle force; you certainly can establish a battle force and say "My 3D6Ds are firing 2 drones each for +6, costing .6EP" when establishing your force. But once you see your opposition, there is no indication that you can (or cannot) change that.

Like, Richard's reading of the SOP seems very much to indicate that you can't--i.e. you establish your battle force, and then when the enemy doesn't show up (in a capital assault, as per the question at hand), you still have to use full drone bombardment as planned, but the rules seem kinda vague enough that there is a question.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 02:05 pm: Edit

NOT A RULING, BUT...

Where is the enabling rule that permits a player to NOT spend points allocated to DB AFTER the forces have been revealed?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 02:18 pm: Edit

I don't know of any such rule.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Like, for the sake of clarity here, I'm not taking a position one way or the other on the Drone Bombardment issue; I just think the rule is not super clear (as evidenced by multiple people who generally seem pretty on top of things, F+E wise, suggesting/answering that, in fact, you *don't* need to pay for DB if the enemy doesn't show up) and could use a nice, clear answer/ruling one way or the other.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 10:16 pm: Edit

OK, looking at the online-SOP

Battle Forces are assigned in 5-3F
Battle Forces are revealed in 5-3H and items are revealed as to how they're being used in that battle force...

So it looks (to me) that the DB amount isn't announced until after both sides are revealed...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 02:29 am: Edit

Stewart (reply also in Q&A discussions - I suggest we keep our comments there).

309.11 (to me) is giving the option of using a Drone Ship as a Drone Ship rather than a normal warship.

If you use it as a Drone ship - you have made that decision and so it is Drone Ship for that battle round.

If you use it as a Normal ship - it will remain so for that battle round.

What rule allows you to remove a ship from a battle force? (As if it doesn't fire a drone(s), it can't be in drone box)?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 09:31 am: Edit

No one is talking about removing a ship from the battle force here. The issue is "can you adjust the amount of drone bombardment between assigning the DB ship to the force and then seeing the opposing force".

Maybe you can? Maybe you can't? Maybe you have to assign the amount of DB when you build your line and then it is fixed. Maybe you assign the DB ship to the DB slot when you build your force, and then you can adjust the specific amount of DB (from 1-4 per ship, for example) based on what your opponent's line ends up being? Unclear at press time. Which is why I'm asking the question.

Although if Richard is correct about step 5-3F (and while I have no reason to think he is not, I'm not actually looking at the SOP currently), that does seem pretty clear, at which point, well, there you go:

"5-3F: Each combat round, players secretly build a battle force
allocating such things as:
• Elements: warships, scouts, drone bombardment ships
and points, rescue tugs, hospital ships, etc. "

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 11:34 am: Edit

On the current issue of drone bombardment ships altering or revealing the amounts of drone points to expend . . . it's worth noting that 5-3B of the Battleforce Determination requires an analysis prior to battleforce determination as to whether or not small scale combat is required due to battleforce size restrictions. Wouldn't this step reveal if one's opponent chose not to place any ships at all into his "battleforce"? And this step is well prior to assignment of (let alone revelation of) drone ships and drone usages.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Ooh! Twist!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 02:50 pm: Edit

5-3B: Prior to the initial combat round (and only the initial
round), determine if small scale combat (SSC) battle force
size restrictions (310.11) apply; if so, SSC must be used in
step 5-3L and all following rounds in that battle hex.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 02:57 pm: Edit

*This has nothing to do with knowing battle forces.

*The way SSC works is that if you have three or fewer ships on each side IN THE HEX. AND if your offensive compot is 14 or less (or 16 or less if using a PT), AND your defensive compot is less than 19 compot, then you MUST use SSC.

If you have three or fewer ships and if your force exceeds the compot limits, then you MAY voluntarily commit to using no more compot than the limit and thereby be qualified to use SSC. This does not in itself force your opponent to use SSC if he has a force under these restrictions but does not voluntarily do the above described action.

This does not require you to create a battle force to determine the above.

Note that if you have four or more ships in the hex, you may not use SSC at all.

Also note that once this determination is made (prior to any compot) as to whether or not SSC is being used, it may not be changed latter during this battle.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 02:58 pm: Edit

(310.11) BATTLE FORCE: If both players have no more than
three units (or equivalents) with a combined total of no more than
fourteen offensive and no more than nineteen defense factors,
use this Small Scale-Combat system, not the regular combat system.
This system is used beginning at Sequence of Play Sub-
Step 5-3J and ending after SoP Sub-Step 5-6B. If a Battle Hex
begins combat using the Small-Scale Combat then the Battle
Hex must complete all following combat rounds using Small-Scale
Combat. If the battle hex begins using the regular combat system,
then all combat rounds in that hex use the regular combat
system. Do not switch back and forth between systems in a single
Battle Hex.

By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Message deleted by author

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 03:45 pm: Edit

NOT A RULING...but...

I can't find any enabling rules that permit a player to withhold or increase the spending for drone bombardment once the battle forces are announced. What am I missing before I make a ruling?

From the Master SoP of 17 July 2017:

---

Quote:

5-3F: Each combat round, players secretly build a battle force allocating such things as:

• Elements: warships, scouts, drone bombardment ships and points, rescue tugs, hospital ships, etc.

=============

5-3H: All players simultaneously announce their battle force deployments identified in step 5-3F including use of:

• Amount of drone bombardment (309.0) points assigned.

---

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Colonel Strong:

Nothing REQUIRES the allocation be a specific amount. You can if you choose allocate Zero drone bombardment points on a given round of combat, or allocate only one or two even if you have three (or more) available. Putting a drone bombardment ship into the battle force is a choice, and you can rearrange the battle force to suit. Just as you can decide to withhold a heavy cruiser and put in a war cruiser, or vice versa.

Nothing requires you to use your available drone bombardment ships, and nothing requires you to use all of the bombardment capabilities of any given bombardment ship that you are going to use, but if you allocate more than "zero" bombardment points, you are going to pay economic points for that privilege.