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By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 02:15 am: Edit

"converted 12xCA to 12xCC"

Is that a record in a game?

Alas I still think this is one of the most broken aspects of the Conversion rule change

Even if the extra compot never did any extra damage (which is unlikely....) - cripple the CC twice and it's paid for it's conversion.

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By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 07:31 am: Edit

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By Jeffrey Tiel (Platoaquinas) on Sunday, November 19, 2017 - 06:19 pm: Edit

The SFU powers-that-be have systematically eliminated all the other possibilities where you could boomerang back and forth between two locations to burn off large PDU minus points. I wonder if the co-located bases are an oversight or a deliberate choice, and if the latter, what the reason would be for permitting the soak off rounds. For a defender it means a serious re-assessment about the wisdom of building a co-located base.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 08:21 am: Edit

Heh, the Gorns don't have 123456 CC's to do it with though.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Alas I still think this is one of the most broken aspects of the Conversion rule change

Not really, since converting a CA to a CC cost one EP for the extra command facilities and one EP for the extra firepower, since the Lyran CA already has the command facilities, it's only getting the extra firepower...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 06:52 pm: Edit

They can get 1234567+ CCs to do it with though. Both from new construction and converting BCs to CCHs with CDR. Unless they really need a CR9 ship it is pointless to spend 1 EP to convert a BC to a CC.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 07:38 pm: Edit

turtle, what you said DOESN'T get the Gorns 123456 CCs. They start with three I think and don't build or convert more, generally, so its not really comparable to the Lyran's ability to convert all 20 odd CAs or whatever they have to CCs in two turns at minimal cost.

Believe me, if the Gorns DID start with 20 ships they could convert to CCH's for 20 EP in two turns, it would be common to see that happen (in games that get to that point).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 19, 2018 - 07:55 pm: Edit

You can get 7 easily enough and probably more. Just because the Lyrans can do it in mass on turn 1 doesn't mean that it is specifically limited to them.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 08:08 am: Edit

As others have mentioned, two key points

1) Gorns are the third least used empire in the game (ISC and Tholians being 1 and 2) - and so a Lyran CC could be used for 12 turns before the Gorns even start to convert CCH's

2) Lyrans start with a stack of CA's.

So although both sides can benefit, which side benefits the most?

A significant number from turn 1 or a handful from turn 12?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 08:32 am: Edit

Paul, the Gorns lack lots of attrition units and a significant number of ships. They depend on the Feds to help with both. However, they have good ships that can be made better. This is important when density is needed.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 03:37 pm: Edit

If it needs fixing why not limit it as a conversion to 1 or 2 ships getting the conversion a turn for many turns and then making it unlimited after that point?

You can spin it as a political rule with the Lyran Dukes not wanting too many of the Count flagships to be that overgunned. Then, scrap the rule as soon as the Federation enters the war as the Lyrans realize this is not going to be a short war and it is going to be some time before the Counts will have time for that kind of politics.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 08:01 pm: Edit

I'm not saying that it needs fixing; it's just an interesting thing to talk about.

Prior to the general war there were limits on CC conversions though.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 09:39 pm: Edit

I think limiting it would be a good idea but the rule may be too fiddly.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Yeah, the Lyran CA>CC conversion for 1 point is collateral damage of the evolution of rules. When a SB could do one conversion per turn, the CA>CC for 1 point conversion made perfect sense (see: what Stewart mentioned above); as there was probably always something else important to convert at a given SB, it didn't happen much.

When the rules changed to "each SB can convert 3 points of conversions", the CA>CC conversion turned out to be nuts.

Which indicates that, well, the cost effectiveness of changing a CR8 ship to a CR9 ship (which costs 1 point--see Lyran CA>CC vs Gorn BC>CC) is much less than that of changing a 8/4 ship into a 9/5 ship (also something that costs 1 point). No one ever converts Gorn BCs to CCs. As it is a waste of money. But every Lyran CA possible is turned into a CC. 'Cause being a 9/5 ships is *vastly* better than being an 8/4 ship (where being a CR9 ship is only marginally better than being a CR8 ship, and is usually irrelevant). As such, the actual costs should probably be, like, shifted to .5EP to gain a CR (unless that CR is 10) and 1.5EP to gain that 1 compot.

That being said, it's probably not worth changing at this point, and it probably balances out in the expanded game as a whole.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:06 am: Edit

"Not really, since converting a CA to a CC cost one EP for the extra command facilities and one EP for the extra firepower, since the Lyran CA already has the command facilities, it's only getting the extra firepower..."

Why is a gain of one firepower assumed to only cost 1 ep?

The way I've always seen it, the cost of increasing an 8/4 cruiser into a 9/5 cruiser should cost 2 ep, and the cost of a increasing a CR8 ship into a CR9 ship costs 1 ep. Then, with the built-in benefit of the two-step conversion rules, the total cost is reduced by 1 ep.

The Lyrans, who already have CR9 cruisers don't need that upgrade, but also don't get the two-step conversion benefit, and therefore would pay a straight 2 ep for upgrading an 8/4 cruiser into a 9/5 cruiser.


While we're on the subject, why do the Lyrans get the benefit of buying a CR9 cruiser for the same cost that everyone else pays for a CR8 cruiser? Shouldn't the Lyran CA cost more than other CA's?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:16 am: Edit

Kevin it isn't the two-step conversion rule. It is the Conversion During Repair rule (425.2) that reduces the 2 EP cost to 1 EP that applies to converting CAs to CCs.

The Gorns are the opposite of the Lyrans in that their BCs and CCs have the same compot (10) but different command ratings thus costing 1 EP to convert the BC to the CC for the extra point of command.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Thomas

I think what Kevin is referring to is that 'perhaps' the rules operated for a Lyran CA to CC conversion in the same way as two step conversion or conversion during repair, prior to them being introduced formally.

Perhaps the easiest correction would be to revert back to the normal 2 Ep conversion for any CA into a CC (or CC into CCH for the Gorns) - the fact a Lyran CA is CR9, which doesn't cost any more than CR8 CA is still a benefit.

In other words, currently Lyrans get the CR9 for free - and then get a discount on a CA>CC conversion because they are a CR9 - so a double benefit.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 03:41 pm: Edit

I don't see how CDR or two step conversions relate to the Lyran CA->CC conversion.

It seems likely to me that it was made cheaper due to the existence of the flag bridge box on the CA in SFB.

It seems obvious that the Gorn BC and CC are the same compot due to the only difference in SFB between the two ships' systems are the flag bridge boxes on the CC. I think that due to the very minimal changes in the design, the conversion cost was determined to be 1 EP.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Richard,

The two-step conversion rule *does not* relate to the Lyran CA -> CC conversion. I only cite it as reasoning to why I think the CA to CC should remain at 2 ep. I see it as "If it were a two step conversion, the final cost would still be 2 ep either way".

Put it another way:
1) Looking at the cost of a typical CA to CC, and assume that the 2 ep covers the increase in firepower and the increase in CR.
2) The cost of converting the Gorn BC to CC is 1 ep, and only covers an increase in CR, therefore we can assume the cost of increasing CR by 1 is 1 ep.
3) Therefore..... NOTHING. It is wrong to put points 1 and 2 together to assume a 1 pt reduction in the cost of the firepower increase of the Lyran CA to CC. The price tag should still remain at 2 ep, because that's how much it should cost for the size increase.

There are multiple examples throughout the game that gives discounts to multi-facet increases, but the individual elements still would cost the appropriate amounts. Take the Klingon D6D for example. To convert a D6 into a drone ship with no scout functions would cost 2 ep. To convert a D6 into a 2ew scout ship would cost 2 ep. Total cost is 4 ep. If they did invent a D6 drone ship with no scout functions, would they say "Cost of regular D6 is 3 ep, 2 of which is the scout functions, so only 1 to give drone ship capability to the D6"? No, it'd still be 2 ep, because that's how much it costs to give a ship drone capability.

Likewise, the idea that a 1 pt increase in firepower should cost 1 ep is.... shaky, at best. There are multiple examples of *small* ships that get a 1:1 ratio of ep to compot increase, but for the larger ships, it usually is more. Fed DN to DN+, 1 compot increase for 2 ep. Same for DN+ to DNG. (Though to DNH it's 2 ep for 2 compot, weird.) Gorn CL to BC, 4 ep for 2 compot. Most CW to NCA are 3 ep (or is it 2 ep for some?) for just a 1 compot increase. Again, there are exceptions - Gorn HD to CM is 3 ep for 3 compot, though that could be explained as the benefits of Gorn pre-war planning and innovation. Heck, even the most common examples of Lyran innovation is the catamaran to trimaran conversions, which typically cost 3 ep for a 2 compot increase.

In short, there is no reason to assume that the Lyran CA to CC should be so much more a cost efficient increase than the other CA to CC conversions or the trimaran coversions. To turn a CA to a CC should still cost 2 ep, because that's how much it costs to increase from 8 compot to 9.

At the very least, if the cost discount is due to the command ratings already being CR9, then the basic cost of the Lyran CA should be increased to reflect that CR. 9 ep for an 8 compot CA.

But anyway, I don't officially put this up as a proposal for rule change, unless others call for it as well.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 04:37 pm: Edit

DNs to DNHs is usually 2 EP for 2 compot.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:47 pm: Edit

The change from 1 conversion per turn at an SB to 3 points worth of conversions per turn is certainly the trigger for the mass CA to CC.

I wonder if you can keep the 3 points but restrict the number of cruiser hulls.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 09:06 pm: Edit

I don't see any need for the conversion rules to be changed. It was originally changed to help compensate for the loss of CEDS in the 2010 rules. The Kzintis and to some extent or another the Feds and Klingons and possibly the Romulans need to be able to convert a large number of light escorts quickly.

In the Empires of the Dead game after 3.5 turns, The Carnivons, Lyrans, LDR, and Klingons have lost a combined 90 ships. In comparison the Hydrans, Kzintis, and Vudar have lost 29 ships.

3 Coalitoin BATS and 4 PDUs lost compared to 15 Alliance BATS, 2 Starbases, and 36 PDUs.

NOTES:
The Hydrans still have their capital, at least for the moment.
The number of dead cited above only include the Western half of the map.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Kevin, there is one more reason for the 1 EP cost for the Lyran CA/CC conversion, the difference between a CA+p and the CC+ is two shuttle boxes and forward shielding (and 1EP is the smallest conversion cost to be used)...