Mr. Calhoon and I have been discussing the possiblity of updating this scenario to be more in tune with newer units and rules. (Newer pertaining to things not in the game when we first wrote this scenario).

Any input would be appreciated.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Monday, April 16, 2018 - 06:12 am: Edit

Richard where is the original?. i was just thinking the Hydran war of return would be a great scenario for F&E. until just now, i never knew someone had done any work on it.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 16, 2018 - 06:20 am: Edit

*I think it is in CL#18. I half wrote an updated version, but that is on hold.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Monday, April 16, 2018 - 06:31 am: Edit

ouch thats one i missed i think i stopped on cl#16 and for a long time now the price has been too rich for my meager funds.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 16, 2018 - 02:50 pm: Edit

The challenge in doing a historical Hydran Liberation scenario is that it requires the blending of Early Years with Middle Years eras and the associated scenario limitations. It took us a lot of time and effort to work out the needed limitations for the 4PW era. When we develop these rules they MUST be in congruence with established SFU history, some of which itself is not fully developed or understood yet.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 16, 2018 - 06:37 pm: Edit

When Mr. Calhoon and I wrote it, we did talk to SPP (if I recall) and tried to make the scenario 1as 'historical' as possible. Mike and I did make a stab at the rules for early years units and tried to make an OOB that made some sense as we saw it at the time. The scenario could use revision, and I hope some day to do that.

The Lyran-Klingon coopertion rule (in 4PW) had its start in this scenario.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 - 11:04 am: Edit

Chuck, its always puzzled me.
this era and the 4pw are the two era's of Hydran dominance over the Lyran and Klingon empires yet so little has been devoted to this subject, like a Ranger squadron has 27 fighters plus the usual support and command ships.. this should easily overpower in quality, if not quantity both opponents and since the Hydrans got the drop on both in the war of return (to a point of parity at the established borders.) a fairly good OOB should not be too hard to come up with (basically the initial push gets as far as the border and then the strategic movements of both the Klingons and lyrans stall any further movement (quantity having its own quality as Stalin put it.).).
Dang!, now i'm ruminating over this im going to have to get a copy of CL#18.
Personally, two fleets of LC 3RN 3LN 3HN SC plus maybe 2 DD squadrons composed of 3LN 3HN SC. with the opposition being base stations and 1 E4/lyran FF per prov. Hydrax having Lyran CA CL DD 2FF SC and Klingon D6 2F5 3E4 3E3 E3S/E4S.

Richard, any chance you could send me some info on where you guys got to?.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, April 17, 2018 - 05:26 pm: Edit

This was what the OOB was. It would certainly be changed (and the whole thing would be in need of editing).

(696.7) UNIT SETUP
Set up the Forces simultaneously in the listed hexes. The
Coalition takes their turn first, followed by the Hydrans.
(696.71) HYDRAN UNITS
At the beginning of the scenario all of Hydran space except for the
Old Colonies off-map area has been conquered by the Klingons and
Lyrans.
(696.711) All Hydran bases and PDU's not in the off-map area are
destroyed. (Exception: secret Y-regiments, see 696.713).
(696.712) HYDRAN UNIT DEPLOYMENT
Old Colonies Fleet (Deployed in the Hydran off map area):
R, L, 2xHN, SC, 4xGrn, 12xVlt, 1xConvoy, 1 prime team.
King's Fleet ( Deploy in 0119):
LC, R, 3xL, 5xHN, SC, 1xConvoy, 2 prime teams.
The Hydrans have one repair ship.
(696.713) The Hydrans secretly (in writing) deploy a single Y regiment
on any two planets in original Hydran territory not in the same
hex. These are not revealed until Hydran units enter their hex.
(696.72) COALITION UNITS
(696.721) The Klingon and Lyran battle stations along the original
border remain intact, but are Early Years Base Stations.
(696.722) There are Klingon YBS's in hexes 0718, 0617, and 1017.
(696.723) There are Lyran YBS's in hexes 0416 and 0617.
(696.724) The Lyran planet in hex 0711 has two PDU's.
(696.725) There are garrison satellites orbiting all Hydran planets.
(696.73) KLINGON UNIT DEPLOYMENT
Western Marches Fleet: D4C, 3xD4, 6xF4, 9xE1, and
one prime team deployed as follows.
D4C, 2xD4, 2xF4, and 1 prime team in 0617, D4, 2xF4 in 1017, 2xF4
in 0718, and an E1 in hexes 0715, 0716, 1013, 1116, 1218, 1415,
1417, 1419, and 1214.
Western Fleet Detachment: (Deployed on Turn 2 and/or 3)
3xD6, 2xF5, 4xE4, 1xResv.
Home Fleet Detachment: (Deployed on Turn 5 and/or 6)
D7, 2D6, D6D, 2F5, 4E4.
(696.74) LYRAN UNIT DEPLOYMENT
Bloody Claw County Fleet: YCA, 4xYFF deployed as
follows: YCA, YFF in 0416, YFF in 0212, YFF in 0318, YFF in 0214
Hidden Dagger County Fleet: YCA, 4xYFF, and 1 prime team deployed
as follows: YCA, YFF, 1 prime team in 0617, YFF in 0519, YFF in
0515, YFF in 0413.
Enemy's Blood Duchy Fleet Detachment:
(Deploy in 0411 on turn 2): CA, CL, 3xDD, 4xFF, SC, 1xResv
Dark Star County Fleet: (Deploy in 0711): CA, CL, DD, 2xFF, SC

(696.76) FACTORS OF UNITS IN THIS SCENARIO
(696.761) Klingon Units:
D4C: 4-6/2-3 Command 8 Salvage 2
D4:4-6/2-3 Command 7 Salvage 2
F4: 2.5-3/1.5-2 Command 4 Salvage 1 (The counter for the F4
should have a 2^-3/1-2). Two or more triangle factors may be
combined to produce attack factors, ignoring any odd triangle
factors. (Similar to the Warhawk's triangle fighter factor, but
not a fighter).
E1: 2/1 Command 2 Salvage 2/3
GS: 0-2 No crippled rating Command 0
(696.762) Lyran Units:
YCA: 5-6/3 Command 8 Salvage 2
YFF: 2/1 Command 2 Salvage 2/3
GS: 0-2 No crippled rating Command 0
(696.763) Hydran Units:
LC 7-9(3)/5(1) Command 9 Salvage 2 and 2/3.
Y Regiment 2(1 Fighter) no crippled factors. (More cannot be
constructed during the scenario).
Grenadier(GRN): 5-6/3 Command 7 Salvage 2
Voltigeur(VLT): 2/1 Command 2 Salvage 2/3
(696.764) General Units:
PGUs on planet 0711. Has an attack and defense factor of 3, but no
crippled factors. Command rating 0. More PGUs (on any planet) may
not be constructed by any means.
YBS: 6/3 Command 8 (0 FTRS), 2 EW factors (one when crippled). This
unit has an EW factor of one if its uncrippled attack rating is not
reduced to 3 (Klingons 4). This is the Early Years base station.
BS: 8/4 Command 8 (0 FTRS), 2 EW factors (one when crippled). This
unit has an EW factor of one if the uncrippled attack rating is not
reduced to 4 (Klingons 5). This is the non-Early Years base
station.

Note: YBS's have the full repair capability of a BATS, as does a BS.
3xF5 is not an F5Q ( the F5C and F5D don't exist ).

*I am amazed that I still have the original text file after all this time for this scenario. Base Station factors are obviously wrong.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 04:43 am: Edit

i seriously doubt that the hydrans would try to retake their kingdom with so few new units, CC 2CA 4DD and 7FF just does not sound enough to me (see my above post which did not include all the old stuff for either side. i see you guys did not have anything down about production of new units either (for instance, Hydrans....spring 1RN, 1LN, 2HN(1SC sub.)/autumn(fall) 1CC(RNsub) 1LN, 2HN.). Y134/Y135 was over a decade after the D6 and other modern mid era units were introduced which iirc was circa Y119-Y125 i know at peacetime rates it takes time to introduce them in numbers but even so.... there should be what ten D6 in the klinks empire by then at one per year (not inc any scenario (sfb) losses)

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 04:44 am: Edit

still its great you guys did what you did and i'd love to see this one given the full 2010 treatment, thanks for posting the file and more importantly keeping the file to be able to post Richard.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 06:17 am: Edit

The Hydrans do have enough; I did not list their production schedule and of course there are a ton of rules in the scenario.

Mike and I did play the scenario back in the day and it would take very bad play for the Hydrans to fail to re-take their capital on turn one.

Essentially the Coalition loses quite a bit of their at- start fleet right at the beginning if the Hydran plays sensibly. Without reading the actual scenario rules, it isn't really possible to assess the situation.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 10:57 am: Edit

oops, i've checked the date avail on the SIT as well D7 & F5 Y134 so D6/E4/E3 for the modern stuff.
were there any rules on movement being slower on map or less Strat moves etc etc.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Yes, there were rules covering those and other things.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Don't forget that Klingons just finished a war with the Kzinti in Y131 so most of their new ships would be headed there.

Plus both the Klingons and Lyrans used the Hydran theater for a backwater so it had mainly older ships with one or two 'modern' ships at Hydrax...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 06:15 pm: Edit

It's been a long time so memory is fuzzy, but we did look at the timeline prior to writing this scenario and noted that the Klingons and Lyrans had been fighting a good bit. If I recall correctly, Mike and I thought that the Lyrans (other than the EB area) did not really care about Hydran space, as losing it would mostly just weaken the EB duchy which was fine with the other Lyrans.

The Klingons were complacent, and even when reports of Hydran attacks happened, they were not at first taken that seriously - the territory at that point was a backwater way away from the center of things and had been quiet for a long time.

The Lyrans and Klingons had probably been squabbling over Hydran space at least some of the time, partly leading to the limits on their cooperation in this scenario.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 04:41 am: Edit

i know im going off subject a bit here. but this has always puzzled me.
the amount of D6's available and mothballed (plus romulan sales.) for the relatively short full run of production on the hulls ie y121S-y133F
(when D7 hull's become available Y134S.) at the start of the GW.
and of course the Klingon 'peacetime' production schedule. has anyone run the numbers on this before?.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 04:50 am: Edit

the Lyrans however, for this scenario, would have most of the heavy cruisers ( i worked out 12 years (Y119-Y131.) to completely build 20 CA (5 per fleet.) plus 4 CC.) if not their entire fleet fully built in modern hulls by circa Y131-Y132

Lyran doctrine would most definately be big ships 1st so it would be understandable if CL DD FF hulls were not completed by this timeframe in favour of the bigger ships.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 06:10 am: Edit

The D6 continued in production after the introduction of the D7, and was still in series production at the start of the General War.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 08:32 am: Edit

Lyran doctrine? Is this something you are making up or is it something that is actually published somewhere? They most certainly built more small ships than heavy cruisers, look at their OOB in 4PW or the General War...

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 10:58 am: Edit

Jason yes i understand that. as i said has someone actually run the numbers. by klingon WARTIME production one D6 is produced in the same time as 3 D7's (excluding substitution/overbuild and D7C production.) are. i've done no number crunching etc etc.
how are these numbers affected by klingon 'peacetime' production.

Richard, Lyrans are very feudal in their heirarchy/society which is why a CC HAS to be stronger in fighting ability than a CA just in case of a cat fight (so the guy in charge can enforce his point of view, if needed.), pardon the pun. its written somewhere in the Lyran background in SFB. it therefore follows that the biggest ships would be built 1st. when a new design is implemented. in this case, the whole fleet. so my logic above in the case of Lyrans should be correct. this is not the case for the other great powers in the game.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:13 am: Edit

also on a similar subject the Hydrans had just implemented the modern era ships starting in (presumably) Spring Y133 im going to assume wartime production for the following numbers so bare with me. assuming wartime production and spare (saved after researching and/or during researching the new classes.) EP's in the old colonies (to build the new fleet) and replacing the paladin slot of GW era with another LC slot. the max start point fleet of modern era Hydran ships would be 3LC and 3RN and possibly 12LN, 18HN, 3SC

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:27 am: Edit

i mean the older stuff (voltigeur etc.) is kind of make it up as you go along numbers wise, since they have been building ships for 42 years (Y87-Y90 being used to rebuild a shipyard in the old colonies) by that point ( assuming the trade guilds had the cash of course.).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:35 am: Edit

The YIS for Hydran RN and other ships is based on when they were first seen rather than when they were first developed, to the best of my understanding.

Generally, production schedules during the general war have little to do with earlier production schedules.

Anywho, if you have more questions about this scenario, I suggest obtaining a copy of CL#18.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:37 am: Edit

@steve cole, has anyone ever run the numbers from the start (Y0-Y4 onwards, after warp is invented) or even tried. if so i'd love to see the lists

i still do not agree with 75 F5's as the biggest number (single type) in the game at GW start OOB's (seems way too small a number i mean i get it (for game purposes) why its so small but i do love my counters (must have thousands! (slavering sounds (mild insanity.).).).).

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:41 am: Edit

Richard, i thought YIS was two years after the prototypes as a rule of thumb.