Run away! Run away!

By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Friday, December 15, 2017 - 12:16 am: Edit

well, over half of the 91 SE that attacked the 3rd starbase is either dead or crippled. I would say he got his pound of flesh. A few less 1's rolled and the number would have been much better.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, December 16, 2017 - 04:08 am: Edit

Details Details Details.

The Peanut gallery needs details (please )

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 16, 2017 - 11:20 am: Edit

I don't have a list of the dead ships but cripples are:

Klingons: 5D7C D6M MD5 10D5 3F5L 13F5 TGA CVT 3D5V 4AD5 4F5E E4A F5S.

Feds: 2DN 4CA 3NCL 2CL 3DD 4FF ECL FFT.

*At 0215 the casualties were:
Hydran dead: LC 3DG 3HR KN CU HN SAV
Hydran cripples: TR

Klingon cripples: D6M D5 F5L 3F5 D6V D5V F5E E4A 3D6D
Lyran cripples: 2CC 3CF STT STJ 8CW 4CL 4DW DD 3SC

Lyrans dead: STT CW DD

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, December 16, 2017 - 11:31 am: Edit

Well, I don't remember the battle at 2211 well enough - but honestly Bill got really hosed by bad dice. Because he did not but let the damage fall there was a somewhat decent chance that he could win the hex. However, his bad die rolls for something like 6 of the 10 rounds made that impossible for him. On at least 2-3 rounds I rolled 6, and one of those rounds it was a 6-1 split in my favor. The only person I've ever known who remains utterly stoic over those kinds of rolls is Richard... I would have gone mad!

I can give you a tale of the tape.

Federation KIA: SB, 2*NCL, CL, 2*FF, SAV, FHL

Federation WIA (a few of these ships were crippled before the battle began): 2*DN, 4*CA, 3*NCL, 2*CL, 3*DD, 4*FF, ECL, DE, FFT.

Federation 3rd fleet remaining (so add the above casualties and you'll have the initial forces roughly): 2*ADM, BT, DNL, CF, CVA, CVB, 3*CVL, CLV, 3*DE, NCD, LSC, SC, COV, CMC.

Retreat hex was 2311.


Klingon KIA: None (one kill and rescue of a F5S).

Klingon WIA: 5*D7C, D6M (SHOCK), MD5 (SHOCK), 10*D5, 3*F5L, 13*F5, CVT, 3*D5V, 5*AD5, 4*F5E, E4A, F5S.

Klingon East Fleet remaining: ADM, C8, TGA+AL, 4*D7C, D7, FD7, D6, 2*E4, 4*E3, 2*FV, AD5, E4A, 2*E3A, 3*D6D, 2*D6S, F5S, D6G, 2*F5G, E4G, D6J, F5J, D5H, E4T.

Klingons also voluntarily retreated to 2112 in order to put two starbases within in retrograde range. That's *a lot* of cripples!


The 215 battle was even more brutal. In addition to the below, the Hydrans also lost an RN in the pinning battle in Lyran space (direct crippled and then bagged in pursuit).

Hydran KIA: LC, 3*DG, 3*HR, KN, 3*CU, HN, SAV

Hydran WIA (2-3 of these ships were crippled prior to the battle): PAL, LM, RN, HR, TG

Hydran remaining fleet: 2*ADM, PT, 2*THR, HR, 2*TR, KN, LN, CU, HN, 6*DE, TG+FCP (all 27 capacity used this battle), 2*FCR, TG+S, SC, LNG, FFT.

Retreat hex: 116


Lyran KIA: STT, CW, DD

Lyran WIA: 2*CC, STT, STJ, 3*CF, 8*CW, 4*CL, 4*DW, DD, 3*SC.

Lyran Remaining: 2*ADM, MMG, 3*PT, 2*BC, 3*CW, DW, DD, 5*FF, CLV, CWE, DWE, CLS, DWS, DDG, 3*LTT

Klingon KIA: None

Klingon WIA: D6M, D5, F5L, 3*F5, D5V, D6V, F5E, E4A, 3*D6D.

Coalition stayed in 215.


The battle for 1401 is a slow thing as we're both picking BIR 1. However, Bill has rolled poorly on 2 of 3 rounds so far (and rolling a 5 on round 2), with round 3 a 6-1 split in my favor.

So far, Kzinti have lost an EFF (direct) and crippled MEC and EFF. Coalition has crippled BC, DW, and DD - no KIA yet. Both sides have lost plenty of fighters.

Kzinti forces engaged in battle (several ships already partial retreated and I do not list them here): 2*ADM, 2*PT, DN, 2*CC, CL, 3*FFK, {CVS, MEC, FKE}, {CVS, MEK, FKE}, {TGC+BB, CLE, EFF}, {CVS,CLE,EMPTY}, {TGT+BB, CLE, FF}, {CVL, CLE, FF}, {CVL, CLE, FF}, 2*CVE (NAKED), DDV (NAKED), PV (NAKED), 3*FCR, DF, TGC+S, 3*SF, CLG, LTT, 2*FFT.

Coalition forces engaged (plus the cripples above):

Lyran: ADM, 2*PT, DN, TGC+A, BC, 2*CC, CF, 2*CW, 6*DD, 12*FF, JGP+V, {CVL, CWE, DWE}, {CLV, CWE, HDD}, FCR, TGP+SS, 2*CLS, 4*DWS, SC, JGP+G, DDG.

Klingon: ADM, MMG, 2*PT, C5, F5, 8*E4, 2*D6D, D6G, 2*F5G.

DB is almost not an option unless I start killing Klingon ships as Klingons have maximized debt and are out of cash!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 01:26 pm: Edit

C8 is over.

The battle for Kzintai resulted in a Coalition victory, with more damage to the Kzinti than to the Coalition. However, I don't have enough ships to keep the capital, should he decide to retake it on C8. Which he may or may not do. I've left a lot of targets vulnerable, but I have seven outstanding reserves covering all major targets. He can't do everything, so if he chooses to retake the capital that means he's not threatening something else. We'll see what Bill does with the Kzinti.

In the HTO I took the final on-map starbase at huge cost. However, I popped half a dozen cruisers, and reduced Hydran pincount by abut 15, which is a very good thing. Also, his operations against the Lyrans will not be more difficult.

In the FTO, the Feds remain highly entrenched. Taking out third starbase broke the western front, but it also cost me a huge number of cripples which now have to be repaired and will hinder my forward momentum. I still have enough to be a threat, though just not to deep Federation targets.

Play proceeds over to A8!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 01:02 am: Edit

A8 Hydran eco:
The Hydrans collect 8 EPs from offmap and 21 from offmap. They started with 14 or so EP in the treasury (a fair bit of salvage happened on C7), get 5 EP from the guild, are up to 4.5 FFF and get 5EP from high risk survey.
Their 3 survey ships remaining do a spectacular 6 for survey. The PT does 2 more.

The Hydrans buy a command point, fix a DG DE and PGS (and convery the DG to a PIC), and produce LTT CU LNH-V and get a free POL and PGS.

They also do a third turn on their medium shipyard and start a minor FF shipyard with their ENG.

They also completely refill the FCP pallet spending 5.4 EP.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 01:02 am: Edit

Hydramax goes into rebellion.

The Hydrans raid province 0718 with an HNG which is unopposed.

Two LGE+PT raid a couple eastern provinces. The ships in the hex decline to have a reaction battle, and in each hex the Hydrans kill a D5 with their LGE+PT.

Nasty things, LGE's.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 09:22 am: Edit

I hate LGEs. Unless I'm playing Hydran.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 10:44 pm: Edit

LGE (for those of us that don't have F&E)?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Hydran Liege (fast dreadnought).

Three hellbores, eight p-1s, 2P-Gs, 45 warp, 1.25 move cost, 2 fusion beams (I think), and most especially also 12 fighters.

Mmm.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 29, 2018 - 04:41 am: Edit

Hydrans have finished op moves, having made a supply FFT on 0116 to supply forward deployed fleets in 0211 0311 and a few ships in 0210. No serious battles, probably.

They've also set up some pickets in 0116, 0217 and 0218 and are holding 0519 with a moderate force. Some ships were also left at 0116 (some aux carriers and a few escorts and misc things).

They're probably done with movement, but it remains to be seen how the other theatres go.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, April 26, 2018 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Last report was A8. It's now C10.

C9 and A9 were pretty standard. Fire red particle cannons full, blue particle cannons full, fire the right particle cannons, fire the left particle cannons. You know. Both barrels!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzzKFvu3mXA (about 5:30 in).

A bit more seriously, the major event of C9 was the fall of Marquis SB for a heck of a lot of Coalition cripples, some Zin cripples, and a few dead ships on both sides. Otherwise, relatively quiet as I consolidate holdings and setup for C10.

A9, the Zin hold 1401 and the Hydrans take 617! I had misjudged the number of ships Richard could bring to bear and so did not have enough to hold 617. It cost me two MB that I had to abandon during setup, and a bunch of kills and cripples. On the good side, I killed a LGE and several more good Hydran ships. At this point, he can manage precisely 1 150 compot line or so - and that will go down fast if I kill any more of his good units.

C10 is now underway. The big deal this turn is that I've decided to attack the Tholians! About 150 SEQ of Klingons cross the Rubicon into 2818. This prompts Tholian Third fleet in 3019 to move into Tholia to reinforce that planet. The Klingons then pin 2nd fleet in 2918 - I'm waiting for reaction decision, but my guess is that there will be no further reactions in the TTO, as said Klingons will then pin 1st fleet in 2819 and the rest will dog-pile into Tholia.

The Romulans setup the entirety of West fleet in 3317 - in striking range of Tholia. Gee. I wonder where they are going? >8)

In all I have about 225 SEQ in striking range of the Tholians. Their days are most decidedly numbered.

Of course, they will extract MORE than their pound of flesh. Because I took the Hydran and Zin capitals on C6, the Tholians went to limited war (Tholian reaction) for A6-A9, meaning they now have some serious firepower. While they couldn't produce *many* ships, they now have 2 extra DNs (conversion, production), 3*MON-V, and a command point (Bill risked losing the command point on the bet I would attack - or at least deter me from attacking - but now he gets to use it!). They also have an extra C and a few extra PCs.

Meaning I'm facing somewhere on the order of a 275-300 point line when I go in, a line which will only decrease in potency slowly given that I will not be able to target the PDUs or SB directly (other than with the 2 Klingon SAFs I have in range).

In the HTO I'm bringing some more ships back down from defending Lyran space, but doubt I will be able to retake the Hydran capital until C11 when I will have enough firepower within range of 617.

In the ZTO I'm going to make a run at the Zin capital. He's held it for 1 full turn now, so if I don't take it this turn he'll get income for all those devastated planets.

In the FTO it's going to be pretty quiet. Some activity in the north as I send 33 SEQ to what is (for now) an undefended Cygnus (2306) other than 1 PDU, a MON and a POL. Other than that, the Feds will be largely left alone this turn.

The Tholians, on the other hand... their life is gonna suck!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, May 06, 2018 - 01:20 pm: Edit

The Hydrans have been cut off from the offmap, most of their ships are still in supply (at 0617) but a fair number end up a hex NW of there out of supply (though stacked with the supply tug).

The only combat in the Hydran theatre was at 0416 where the Hydrans lost a THR for a DWE and a couple crippled Coalition ships (and lost the planet). Those ships retreat toward Hydrax.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 07, 2018 - 01:57 pm: Edit

In 2919, three rounds have gone by. Coalition casualties have been horrendous due to the CLOSE PROXIMITY of many Tholian weapons (behind web).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Four rounds now done over the Tholian Caoita. SAFs were used for the first two rounds vs PDU (for some reason this is allowed in the rules, a somewhat mystifying thing to me but it is what it is). The SAFs were disrupted but still destroyed 4 PDU. The Coalition also directed a couple web tenders and a couple monitor-v's. The Tholian SB has 6 SIDS and the Tholians have been selfkilling relatively useless ships for the moment.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 08, 2018 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Round one casualties for the Coalition:

(selfkilled)
D6M 3D5 F5L 2F5 AD5 F5E


Round two casualties for the Coalition:

D7C K7R MD5 3D5 2F5 AD5 F5E


Round three casualties for the Coalition:

D7C KRM K7R 3D5 2K5 AD5 F5E


Round four casualties for the Coalition:

FAL K7R 3D5 2F5.


The carnage continues.


These lists don't account for depot or rescue tugs and dont list crippled ships (not too many of those).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 01:17 am: Edit

ABSOLUTE CARNAGE!!!

Tholia falls - but is the victory Phyrric?

In 12 battle rounds the tiny Tholian navy does what the combined homeworlds of the Kzinti and Hydran could not. An entire fleet of ships is wiped out.

I have to say, the recent rule change in Captain's Log that prevents you from having your scouts out of the web and also receiving their EW makes a HUGE difference to the damage taken fighting the Tholians. You need at least two good scouts in the web to prevent EW shifting and that means you have no choice but to self kill more ships in order to eat the damage.

On round 1 the Tholians sported 302 compot and rolled a 5 at BIR 10..... *PAIN*

Casualties for capturing the Holdfast (almost all of these were at Tholia)

Klingon KIA: 2*D7C, 3*D6M, MD5, 17*D5 (2 of these made depot), 3*F5L (1 of these made depot), 18*F5 (1 of these made depot), 3*AD5, 3*F5E, 2*SAF. A *whopping* 61.85 EPs in salvage after the depot ships are taken out. Also, 13.2 EPs in drone bombardment over 11 rounds were used. 46 ships blew up!!!! That's like 2 turns of production!!!!

Klingon WIA: D7C,D6M, 7*D5, 2*F5, CVT, TGA, AD5, F5E (21 EPs to repair).

Romulan KIA: 2*K7R (1 of these made depot), KRM, FAL, 2*K5, K4 8.875 EPs in salvage. 6 ships lost

Romulan WIA: KE, K7R, KR, 2*SP (9 EPs to repair).

Tholian KIA: DN, 4*PC, BW, PCA (CAPTURED), SC, 2*AWT, 3*MON-V, ENG, FHL, 2*F5S, SAS, PTR, 2*CMC (both made depot, but both went away with the Tholian capital), MB, 4*BATS, 3*SB. Total salvage: 16.25.

The Tholians have exactly 1 base left: BATS 2719 (I left it in order to force Home fleet to retreat to 2819 after leaving ships in 2818). The Tholians have 12 EPs on 3*CPC, 1 EP on an APT, and 3.25 EPs on a satellite stockpile on BATS 2719 (gonna die no doubt).

Note the Tholians had much better ships and 3*MON-V available due to the Tholian reaction rule (I took both Kzinti and Hydran capitals on C6, so Tholians went to limited war on A6).

I have every confidence that some EPs from that satellite stockpile will be spent on supplying Home fleet for A10!

The entire remaining Tholian Holdfast:
DP, 2*DN, 5*CA, 4*DD, 5*PC, DDS, SC, 3*CPC, APT, BATS: 22 ships. However, of these, 2nd fleet is completely cut off in 3018 (CA,DD,2*PC,SC). That being said, there are enough Tholian ships that I believe the one "expeditionary" fleet allowed to leave Tholian territory should be reasonably full by the time he makes it to Fed space.

Lesson learned: with Tholian Reaction going and the new Tholian web rules it is NOT worth attacking. I seriously question whether 52 ships KIA is worth taking out the Tholians.

However, even with that reservation, I still withhold final judgement. The benefits of capturing Tholia will kick in in just 2 turns. I now have a nearly unassailable path between Klinshai and Romulus. If I hold the Tholian capital at game end it counts for victory conditions.

So. We will play on and see what happens!

One thing is for certain. All that pow-pow was awesome!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 01:20 am: Edit

Oh yeah. And a Klingon prime team died.

No one noticed among all the death....

Reminds me of the new Avengers move.

"We have blood to spill...."

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 03:45 am: Edit

And you are getting a new movie!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 02:04 pm: Edit

I suppose the question is though - has the rule on Scouts really made much difference?

It seems if the Coalition wants to kill the Tholians it just a matter of rolling dice...and the Tholians die.

Nothing the Alliance can do to stop it

....and yes SAFs just don't make sense.

"You mean out most modern and powerful ships can't do anything to their defences....but these battered defenceless merchant ships slice through them like a hot knife through butter?"

Sounds like the Coalition got luck with 2 maximum effect rolls with the SAF's too

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Thumbnail analysis...

If one figures the cost to be estimated at 5 EP per ship, then 260 EP of ships were destroyed.

With the recovery of the Klingon worlds and a captured Tholia and province, the Klingons gain 21 EP per turn on average.

So then the Klingons break even in about 12-13 turns...

This does not count the lost opportunity costs...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 02:27 pm: Edit

The answer is: Yes, it does make a difference.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 02:41 pm: Edit

It is turn 10, so come turn 16 the Klingons will get 15.75 EP a turn, so it takes longer.

The Coalition spend a fair bit on DBB as well, and this does not count the effect of the Romulans _not_ invading the Federation this turn.

I know from Ted that he did this for fun, to see what will happen, so to speak and presumably to get some more experience and provide the information of what happens when this sort of thing is done.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 11, 2018 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Confirming what Richard said about my motivations. Also, Bill had never played with Tholians before, so I wanted to also give him the opportunity.

IMHO, the EP cost factor is not the overriding concern here. The overriding concern is the loss of pincount. The loss of 52 ships is *huge*, and it may make blockading the Federation difficult enough that they produce many more ships than they would have had I not attacked the Tholians. Thus, the real pincount difference could be 100 or more by game end, and that is very telling.

Also, as Chuck said, the opportunity costs are important. These units were not spent squeezing the Federation breadbasket. The Romulans did not invade the Federation on turn 10, meaning the Federation can bolster the 6th fleet SB on A10 - and that in turn means more pincount loss when I ultimately have to deal with it.

That being said, economically, I will come out ahead in the long term. Additionally, the large bolus of salvage will allow me to pay back most of the 93 EPs of national debt the Klingons have accumulated to this point, which will save me dozens of EPs of interest when looking at accumulated interest saved over time. Also, the strategic advantage of having cleared out the Tholians is important (the 312 will never arrive and the Tholians won't be raiding Klingon space on turn 24 *AND* the Klingons and Roms have a clear SM path to each other now). Finally, at game end, holding Tholia will give me bonus VP.

So, like I said before, I think the jury is still out. However, I am *very* skeptical that attacking the Tholians is a good idea *if* they have gone to limited war under Tholian reaction.

Tholian reaction to both Kzinti and Hydran homeworlds going down is very important. It allowed them to build 3 MON-Vs and have 2 extra DNs - and that in turn gave them a *monster* line I had to chew through. Frankly, had I waited past turn 12 the Tholians would be unassailable after they go to limited war.

Also, to emphasize the point, the new change to scouts and the web made a HUGE difference.

Consider: under the old rules I would put 2+ D6S on the line but out of the web. They are relatively safe (DD at 3:1 all of them) and do their most important job - give me high EW. Compot loss is minimal because they were scouts. These ships are now available to pull cripples from the line out of the web.

This strategy was specifically recited as a reason for changing the scout rule in the latest Captain's Log.

Now, to get the EW, I have to put those scouts in the web. Make no mistake, I need the EW. Without it the SAFs against PDUs are almost pointless. Without it, that shift in damage gives the Tholians *a lot* more staying power, and that is *everything* to their defense, particularly at turn 10-12 where they have little in the way of depth of reserves.

But, I also need the compot ships. The scouts don't add that much compot. So that means most of my high compot ships have to go in the web too. If not, then again I'm not doing damage to the Tholians. With those ships in the web, I'm only holding 1 or 2 out per battle line - and that means I have to self kill more ships because otherwise I couldn't pull cripples out of the web (and cripples would reduce my compot).

Nasty.

Of course, this was a choice. I could have put more ships out of the line and crippled more ships. However, then I would go more rounds over Tholia at their massive compots. I suspect the result would still be the same number of self-killed ships, but now I just have a lot more cripples, because I wasn't doing that same damage by putting my ships in the web.

Remember, the Tholians had an extremely scary line on rounds 1-5. However, soon after they simply had nothing left to take damage on other than PDUs and good ships (and he wanted to keep his good ships). After I chewed through his AWTs and MON-Vs, his compot went down already, and then I used a mauler to direct cripple a DN. Doing so saves points, and I know in the long run no cripple is making it back to Fed space.

Bill realized this, and so self killed the crippled DN. He then kept his DNs and CAs off the line (except for the one command ship in form) and this *further* reduced his compot until very soon the PDUs crumpled into dust. The whole process took only 11 rounds (well, there was a pro-forma 12th to kill the crippled SB).

By far most of my casualties were taken in the first 5 rounds. After that I had the luxury of keeping more ships out of the web, crippling ships, and then pulling them out - thereby limiting self kills. But those first 5 rounds were absolutely brutal.

And I knew they would be.

If Chuck and SVC wanted to make the Tholians more painful to take by changing the scout rule - I can absolutely state unequivocally that it worked. I'm not saying that was a bad thing for the game, but it had the intended effect.

Anwyay, it was a whole ton of fun. I enjoyed it. Only the second time I have smashed the Tholians.

Maybe because of it this game will go the whole 35+ turns. Only time will tell!