i mean, the difference between "i definitely attack the duke's SB" and "i definitely just pin and bypass the duke" on turn 2 is probably about 25 compot worth of zin fleet. i myself just dunno how to give an accurate answer that isn't "it's all situational"

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Thanks for the input. Exactly what I was hoping for. So, my interpretation of the retreat priorities allow a (lyran) force at 1001 on turn 1 to retreat onto the count's SB. If so, then they can join in the fight at the SB, even if needing to also retreat from there. If the alliance player is careless enough to send a reserve to the planet, then the counts SB could go down turn one (assuming almost all of red claw went there, and they have to for it to work.) My experiences so far with this have been that it throws the Kzinti player off by now having to defend the planet and SB, as well as the border BATS, and they have to choose, as usual, what to save. They usually just go for saving the starbase. That can make the planet go down cheaply, robbing them of the planet right off the bat and having lyrans "behind enemy lines" that are in supply, and have to be dealt with on AT1. Mind you, my point is not necessarily to take 1001 turn 1, but if it happens, all the better. If I'm right about the retreat priority, you don't lose anything really (except maybe a cripple or two.)
Also, I mentioned 1001 specifically because it helps to protect against Kzinti incursions into northern Lyran space. Particularly later in the game, I like that by having a decent Lyran fleet here (with PDUs to augment) it tends to shift the Kzinti towards Klingon territory, where as you mentioned there are typically more combined forces and likely reserves that can get in. Without 1001 the Kzinti simply don't have the supply to really get to the Northern Lyran space. I find it helps get the Lyrans more into Federation space later on when you are not so concerned about your flank, and also allows for reserve cross coverage with 1407 (which I also use.) Anyeay, I see people talk about 1001 like it's an afterthought, and thought I might put in my two cents about its possible strategic value.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 10:37 pm: Edit

From 1001, you must retreat to a hex that is closest to a Lyran supply point (this is probably the highest priority in this case).

Generally on turn one, those hexes could be 0901, 0902 and 1002. You might possibly have a convoy helping, which would possibly eliminate 1002. 0901 might be eliminated but usually would not be. 0902 or other hexes might be eliminated if the Kzinti have more ships (according to the rules in retreating into a hex with enemy ships) than you do.

If 0901 or 1002 is available, and if they are empty of Kzinti ships, then you can only retreat to 0902 by fighting retreat, and at most you'd get one round of combat there (if the Kzinti accept the approach battle) and then be forced to retreat again.

Assuming you can jump through all of these hoops, note that all Kzinti units in 1001 can also retreat. If you do 1001 first, and if the Kzinti player sent reasonable forces to defend there, then when you declare retreat on your option, then Kzintis also declare retreat. They pick the retreat hex before you pick yours (non-phasing player chooses first) and will (have to) go to 0902. Knowing this, a good Kzinti player can leave the SB with fewer ships if you go to 1001 (or send a reserve to 1001).

Note that all discussion to this point has been focusing on early game, so bringing up later in the game is beyond the scope, and really the game is very unpredictable that talking about early moves leading to specifics in the later game is not going to be particularly fruitful.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 11:06 pm: Edit

karl

you got so many things going on in this thread, i'm just going to shamelessly cherry-pick

1001 is a good hex in that if you hold it, defenders of the count's SB have to budget another battle for the survivors of the eventual assault. the possibility of outflanking the count is why you, IMO, do not want to think in terms of brute-forcing it in the first three turns.

1001's also a good lyran supply point for reaching everything the klingons really want help with in the zto.

i tend to think considerations of "getting lyrans into the federation attack" are mostly wasted effort. the lyrans plainly are never in a position to hold down the hydrans and zin singlehanded, so every ship they put into the federation is at the expense of one fewer klingon. there is maybe a little bit to be said for combined arms, and if you're really the devious sort you can sometimes play retreat games with mixed-race battle forces, but mostly? save the cost of several bases, and the headaches of "how do i keep the lyrans in supply as we advance into the federation?"

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Though do remember that a Lyran base in 1407 can support attacks on the Fed border from 2006-2010 (4 BTS). If you want Lyrans further in (Fed space), then 1910 would be the next place to look …

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Chris: The Lyrans can provide high compot ships against the Federation. That's probably how best they help against the Feds, who do not themselves have significant numbers of high compot ships, at least not for a while.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Monday, September 03, 2018 - 09:01 am: Edit

Thanks for the input. Especially Richard, I had forgotten the defender always chooses first. That throws a monkeywrench in that little plan, glad I didn't try it out in a real game.
Chris, I find it interesting that you don't forward Lyrans onto the Fed front. The Klingon and Lyran fleets complement each other so well. I feel like it would be a shame if the Feds never experienced one of those Lyran BC/DN lines. A real shame.
It does bring up the issue of logistics though. Later on Lyrans operating that far east are typically based out of a single supply point on the Klingon/Fed border. I've thought on a few occasions about trying an expeditionary fleet, but have never done it. In reading most of the game reports here it sounds like it's not super common. Does anybody use expeditionary fleets? And how does that work out?

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Monday, September 03, 2018 - 12:24 pm: Edit

richard

hey no doubt there is some value for the ships on the fed front, but is it higher there than closer to home? if the game somehow goes all Timothy Linden and the lyrans have forty dreadnoughts, then sure go invade the ISC with them, there's no wrong answer at that point.

but conspicuously big lines are especially valuable for menacing medium carrier groups, and the ZTO is a great hunting ground. if the hydrans have been reduced to hiding behind carriers (which seems pretty common by turn 10) you've got the same action there. i don't feel like three dozen lyran big ships would be excessive between those fronts.

coordinating with the romulans instead of the lyrans in the FTO just seems more natural, to solve your "overwhelming firepower" needs. if the lyrans really genuinely just have dreadnoughts sitting around bored (FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS), you just have klink adopt them instead of worrying about extending the lyran supply network.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 03, 2018 - 01:10 pm: Edit

It's good to menace Kzinti and Hydran carrier groups, but I think it's better to go where the money is at that point - the Federation.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, September 04, 2018 - 04:14 pm: Edit

I agree that it is better to move more Lyran resources against the Federation. If you are building lots of DN's, you can keep 'enough' in Kzinti/Hydran space backed up by carriers to keep them in check, if not always scaring smaller carrier groups off the line or into adding an escort to avoid any direct cripple/kills.

Taking down the Federation economy is more important, and until rather late the Federation just has significantly weaker lines and not enough fighters and effective defenses to deal with that.

I've sent an expeditionary fleet of 12 Lyran DN's around turn 20 to actively and seriously threaten the Gorn capitals (along with the Klingons extending their supply to there as well) when focusing on them as a potential third capital. But that is about all I have really done as expeditionary fleets.

Tim Linden

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:49 am: Edit

A 12 DN expeditionary fleet sounds nice. Even just a regular fleet with 12 DNs I would take. That's a pretty uniquely Lyran ability, although it still takes time to work up to the point where you have that many spare DNs lying around. It seems to me that having an abundance of 10 (and 9) CP ships is the defining feature of the Lyran navy. That's I guess why I couldn't imagine not putting Lyrans in the FTO, because after the first few turns all my fleets are mixed Lyran/Klingon. As long as the Lyrans can keep enough ships on the line, the Klingons have a seemingly endless supply of expendable D5s and carriers to make up for exactly what the Lyrans lack.
One of the things that brought me to discover these forums was discovering a bunch of old Captains Log issues I bought back in the early 90s. At the time I was really into SFB but had never played F&E, and so I never paid attention to those articles. Now going back and reading them, the tone of gameplay seemed different. I suppose that the rules have been tweaked since then, and expansions have made law what was previously house rules/play testing only. But I can't imagine those updates have really altered play style all that much. For example, the reason I bring this up is one issue (I think CL #12?) had a 3-page article on "how to play the coalition." One of the first things it says is that it is imperative the Lyrans start setting up a MB on Lyrantan turn 1, to convert to a SB by turn 3. Not for defense, but to get an extra conversion in the capital. I'm assuming they are suggesting an extra major conversion, and if so I don't know if that's still legal. If it is (or isn't) I haven't heard of anyone doing this. Also, it seems like a lot of cash to be throwing around in the first couple of turns, especially considering the idea that EPs early game are worth more than those late game. Then again, if its a tactic that works, you could see a lot more of those Lyran DNs and BCs running around. Which is the major advantage to that race.

By Sören Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Actually when playing a coalition power I never considered another starbase at the homeworld essential and worth the credits. As Hydran or Kzinti player yes, for defensive purposes. But paying 40 EP just to get more conversions. No.

But there is a similar thing I often did in games playing the coalition powers. I took both battlestations at 0705 (Lyran) and 0906 (Klingon) and upgraded them into SBs. Not only did I get two major repair and conversion facilities near the Kzinti theater of war. Both bases would be only two hexes apart which is the movement range of the commercial convoy between the Klingon Empire and Lyran Kingdom. Still a major expanse but every seconded turn one of the two coalition powers would gain 10 addition EPs. As I understand without degradation by economix exhaustion.
Any two neighboring allies could consider this option to shorten the trade routes for the commercial convoys.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Soeren

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Soeren,

(443.53) says commercial convoys ccannot deliver EPs to a starbase within three hexes of the starbase where it began its trip.

In other words it has to travel at least 4 hexes.

Ryan
F&E Staff

By Sören Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Oh my,

I overlooked that rule detail...
Thanks for the hint, Ryan.

Well, there goes a cute little tactic. Not the first one that blew apart while learning to play the game properly and not one of the more embarrissing failures of mine to read the rules properly.

The next time I will choose the battlestation 1107 for the upgrade to SB. Isn't that the base that got upraded to a sectorbase in later scenarios anyway?

So it would be two turns of travel and one turn of delivering the goods at a destined SB, right? Three turns for the trip before the commercial convoy heads back?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Soeren

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Some rules that tend to get skimmed over in when first playing the game that it really helps to know are the supply rules and retreat priority rules.

I recommend to any player that if they don't know these backwards and forwards (at least mostly) to go over them until you do. Then for anything that seems weird to you (by your understanding), check the Q&A forums to see if past discussion exists that clarifies things.

It'll save you a lot of grief. :p

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Soeren, no 'delivery' turn, just two turns of travel in both directions...

Since the CCom starts on a Klingon SB (1411) you just have to remember to upgrade BTS 1009 (4 from SB 608) by Turn 6 (when the CCom arrives) …

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Also, having the BTS at 1009 become a SB allows for a satellite stockpile to be placed there for shuttling into the WYN in one move.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 09:50 pm: Edit

soeren

it's a classic case of two wrongs making a right. no delivery turn means you can get your anticipated 10 EPs every other turn while only producing one starbase.

i favor upgrading 0906 over 1009, by far. the whole scheme is merely fair in pure financial terms, the value you get out of the starbase is pretty much your profit margin

By Sören Klein (Ogdrklein) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 03:42 am: Edit

I followed Richards advice and reread the rule 443 on Commercial Convoys.

Upgrading 1009 as an SB seems like a good idea for the next game, as only the klingons have to do an upgrade while the Lyrans use their existing base. But I still think the forward conversion and repair facility on the Kzinti border at 1106 would still be worthy alternative, as I always tend do upgrade BATS 0705 for the lyrans that way and park several FRDs there.

I also found my mistake with the turn of delivery. Rule 443.21 about CComs speed talked about a turn of remaining at the starbase "arriving and delivering its goods". I overlooked that this was meant for situations were the CCom retreated towards a valid allied starbase.

So many details.

Thanks for all the advice.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Soeren

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 11:29 am: Edit

I hadn't considered transfers between SBs with a convoy before. SB upgrades are expensive, even with starting BATS, so it seems like a high price to pay just to have easy EP transfers. I guess the upside is the benefit for WYN trade that Mike mentioned, and the face that you don't need to tie up tugs to deliver DPs. Still, I like the innovative thinking, and its a quick set-up. Since it is existing BATS the conversion only takes one turn.
In a different theatre, I have had some luck with the Hydrans upgrading the starting BATS in 0315 to a SB right off the bat. I know people will say the Hydrans can't afford it, the money would be better spent on hulls or PDUs. BUT, it has medium-term payoff in helping to keep the coalition from cutting off the Old Colonies easily. If you have success in destroying the Lyran border BATS (a big if), then this base is 7 hexes from the Enemy Blood SB, making it just out of Lyran reach. And the Klingoms are going to have the same problem with supply, making it difficult to even attack in the first few turns, much less have success. Parking a fleet there (makes the Old Colonies Squadron *slightly* more useful in this scenario) also forces the Lyrans to really commit forces if they want to try to cut off the Old Colonies, which is less they have to commit to a capital assault. And, with a significant hard point at 0315, the Hydran fleet has a good place to fall back after the capital falls. Its in reaction range to the minors in 0416 and 0519 as well, making them easier to hold or recapture. The 2nd fleet SB usually seems to be the fallback point, but isn't in as good a location, resulting in the stalemate/war of attrition that so often happens in the Hydran theatre. Anyway, I did this once the last time I played the alliance and it worked well. Of course that was against one opposent, and there could be major holes in this plan that make the upfront costs worth it. (Personally I think the lack of cash flow interruptions from the OC alone make it worth it.) But of course, that's why I'm posting it here.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 11:47 am: Edit

BTW, do it with an ENG for 25 points and no extra fighters. Between the shortcut for the ComCon and the logistics base for WYN trade, an extra conversion facility for the Klingons, an extra SM node buffer, etc. It is worth the 25 eps. Also, convince the Lyran to send you 20 EPs for it and it really is a profitable action.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Just remember if you use the ENG to reduce the cost of the conversion by 5 EPs, you must also use a Tug or LTT. The ENG can only do 1 step conversion and Sector Bases are not available before Y175.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I really don't think it's a good idea to upgrade 0318 in most cases. The money will cost you a serious amount of ships or PDUs (or some of both).

It is not strictly necessary to keep supply open while the capital is up, as you can do Orion smuggling if you must, or blockade run 10 EPs from offmap to Hydrax.

A starbase in 0318 also doesn't stop the Coalition from blocking the offmap by putting ships in 0117-0119.

*** That being said, I did do the upgrade once, but it was a special circumstance.

On the alliance turn after the Coalition took Hydrax in that game, the Hydrans were able to scrape up enough ships to pin out any attempt by the Coalition to reach 0318 (as the Coalition had taken huge casualties taking Hydrax), which gave the Hydrans a strong point for one last on map fight (and caused the Coalition to have to devote additional forces to the Hydran theatre at a point where they really didn't want to do that).

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Definitely without fighters. Too bad about the ENG, but the fact that they make it a two step process is also probably not worth the cost savings in the short term. My experience with this upgrade idea was similar to Richard's as far as delaying/prolonging Hydran withdrawal to the off map. I hasn't done it right at AT3. (Just after the 2nd fleet SB went down), but got to thinking that if I did it on AT3, a) the coalition really can't do anything to stop you, and b) it's money I would have just spent on over building ffs for pinning (which is often necessary but not something that gets me excited, especially when literally every other hydran hull is excellent compared to comparable ships of other races.)
I know that this was a recent discussion on here, but I too am skeptical about the value of maximizing PDU production over Hydrax. The coalition are in there doing capital raids within a few turns, and you just don't get to build that many before they start attacking Hydrax. (Unlike Kzintai, where you can usually for sure get the full 20 before the coalition can muster a serious enough fleet.) Also, like I said, I think the likely diversion with the 0318 SB of Lyran forces trying to get a handle on western Hydran space helps to take pressure off the capital anyway. The cost of SB conversion from an existing BATS (w/o fighters) is about the same as building 4 pdus, and that's just a one time expense. You can always go back to producing the full pdu schedule the next turn if you want.
I just hate, hate, hate the position the hydrans are in in the beginning of the game. They have the best ships (imo) and yet you never get to build really great fleets with them because they don't last long enough. You basically, as the hydran player, just get to choose how you want to die, in a manner of speaking. The chronic cash shortage is insult to injury, especially on turns when the OC is making more income than the remnants of the capital. So this 0318 upgrade was a way to give the Hydrans some more options. The Hydrans still die anyway, but it won't be a quick death. Or at least they have to allocate more resources to that theatre than they probably want.
Incidentally, Richard thanks for the advice on the q&a forums. Despite the apparent simplicity of F&E rules, there are some situations where interpreting the rules for that situation, or reconciling conflicting rules becomes a protracted legal argument. For people like me who have been playing tabletop for years (primarily with the same people), some rules may have been clarified or redefined that I don't even know about. In our local games, disputes are typically solved over a beer, and becomes a "house rule." Coming here I realize some of these questions may have already been solved by the powers that be, and you all here already know about them. So thanks for the tip.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Karl, the Hydrans have to find a way to tie up as many coalition ships as possible for as long as possible, and kill as many of them as possible before they are kicked off the map.

Once they are kicked off the map, they still need to tie up as many as possible and keep killing them for as long as possible.