A general war game between Ted Fay (Alliance) and Dana Madsen (Coalition).

All expansions, no optional rules. We are excluding drone raids, fighter raids, and PF raids. All other non-optional rules are in effect.

This game was started at Dana's suggestion in response to my commentary elsewhere on the BBS that I - personally - didn't see an overriding reason to select a Zin first strategy over Hydran first strategy. Dana intends on showing me the error of my ways in the school of hard knocks!

Thus, this game intentionally sets out for a Zin first Coalition strategy. Not that it would change much for me, because as Alliance I always build up the Zin defenses anyway. Still, it will be interesting to see how this game goes!

This game is played on Cyberboard using www.pbegames.com/roller for dice. I will share files as we go for interested followers of this game.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, October 24, 2018 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Woo! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, October 24, 2018 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Does anyone ever use drone fighter and PF raids?

Good luck guys !

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, October 24, 2018 - 06:30 pm: Edit

If they do, I don't know them. Seems (to me anyway) that there's universal aversion to those rules as sucking hard.

Not much of a fan of the playtest update rules, either.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, October 25, 2018 - 12:07 am: Edit

So being how I've initiated the challenge as a fan of the Kzinti first strategy I'll lay out my high level strategy here. I don't think I'm giving to much away, and I'll maintain some flexibility to modify as needed. But laying it out I definitely open myself to some egg on the face.

My goal will be to take the Kzinti capital on T5 if possible, at least to remove all PDU's and leave them with a SB defense only for T6. Then to stage the strongest attack on the Feds I can on T7. Then keep pushing the Feds hard, drop the Marquis SB, and drive a wedge between the Feds and the Kzinti.

So, while the Klingons have a lot of ships, they can't successfully do everything so I'm going to have to play rope a dope with the Hydrans. They will definitely be the weak front. That being said, if Ted doesn't build any Hydran homeworld defenses and defends the forward infrastructure heavily, I will take any opportunities I see. A lot of T6 repaired ships can strat move to that front if there no new pdu's protecting the Hydran homeworlds.

Overall, the goal is to try and get the Fed capital. Kzinti first is just a step on that path. I don't say that this is a guaranteed strategy for the win. A lot of things can go wrong over the turns (or right). But I've been a fan of a hard T7 attack before the Feds can redeploy and reinforce. Then keep pushing hard and take their income before they get their full build schedule going.

Easier said than done, but that's it in a nutshell.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, October 25, 2018 - 10:54 pm: Edit

I think you just let it be known that if the Alliance decide to play crazy risky Hydrans thinking they are safe from invasion, then you reserve the right to go teach them a lesson.

That way you get a realistic view of a game where the Kzinti are at risk early on.

I think my next Coalition game I'd like to give it a try.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 10:45 am: Edit

IMO that's about what Dana is saying. In other words, don't get stupid. Which I won't.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Ok why build static defenses on a planet that you are going to lose any way. (the hydran capital). Instead just build ships that you can use elsewere?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 05:20 pm: Edit

In the early stages you can build the full list and build PDU. So the other option is full list and Overbuild.

Is 6 extra CU better than 4 PDU ?

The PDU will boost your damage and potentially give you another turn of income and ship building before the Capital falls.

Maybe the next gsme is one where the Alliance skip PDU and Overbuild instead. See how they go.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Short answer: PDUs are better for COMPOT in the battle. You make losing the planet hurt your opponent more with a PDU then an equivalent starship. So it is a question of whether you need ships more or to hurt your opponent more in the capture.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 05:56 pm: Edit

What Jason and Jon said.

Also, bear in mind that there's a cumulative "interest" effect on the damage done by buying more PDUs. Not only do you get more compot, but now there's more PDUs for your opponent to chew through, and you can only chew through 4 PDUs at a time, max.

Let's get quantitative, shall we?

So consider this if you start with 8 PDUs and compare to building 4 more:

Just 8 PDUs
Round 1: Compot +72 (25 damage at 35%). Lose 4 PDUs.
Round 2: Compot +36 (13 damage at 35%). Lose 4 PDUs.

You've done 38 extra damage to the enemy.

At 12 PDUs:
Round 1: Compot +108 (38 damage at 35%). Lose 4 PDUs.
Round 2: Compot +72 (25 damage at 35%). Lose 4 PDUs.
Round 3: Compot +36 (13 damage at 35%). Lose 4 PDUs.

You've done 76 extra damage to the enemy - DOUBLE that you would have done had you not built any extra PDUs. In effect, you've spent 28 EPs to do 38 additional damage.

If you get up to 16 PDUs, the total damage goes up by another 50. If you get up to 20 PDUs, the total damage goes up by yet another 63. So, at 20 PDUs you've done a grand total of 189 extra damage for a cost of 84 EPs. A lot more efficient than, say, drone bombardment.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!!!!

There's also the "overwhelming damage" effect once you are at 20 PDUs (+180 compot). It is common to have as much as 320 compot over a capital planet. At 35% that's 112 damage in a single round! If you get lucky (and the opponent foolishly chooses BIR 4), you could do as much as 160 points of damage!!!! That's enough to completely annihilate some lines. For sure, the opponent is going to be self-killing a lot. Permanent loss of many ships is a very serious threat, and it usually means that the opponent will have to put up his best units on the first few rounds, and they are going to get all crippled or killed - further delaying taking of the capital.

And yet, there's still more. Killing 4 PDUs, with a mauler, costs 30 damage points. Unless you picked a high BIR you're likely to have many minus points on account of homeless fighters (as many as -20 or so) that have to be chewed through on the next round before you can kill more PDUs. And it is not wise, on the initial rounds, to go high BIR because you're con't want to take the chance on getting one of those line-annihilating rolls.

So, that means, you're killing 4 PDUs every *two* combat rounds. And THAT means you are not doing 189 extra damage, you are doing....

63
+50
+50
+38
+38
+25
+25
+13
+13
+0

And THAT sum is 315, the first few rounds of which are forcing the opponent to kill, not cripple, many ships. That's right, 315 extra damage for your measly 84 EP.

And make no mistake, you can't kill all those cherry ships the defender puts up on the line - you *must* kill the PDUs or else you get slaughtered. That drives up the compot you'll be forcing the opponent to face EVEN MORE. You won't have to be pulling those cherry ships off the line until most of the PDUs are gone.

So. What could you get for that 84 EPs? With ADS, you're not failing to build ships, you're talking about overbuilds. That's 8 CWs or 16 FFs.

Now, that's nothing to sneeze at, but against the Coalition war machine, that's a drop in the bucket. You're better off making the Coalition KILL that many ships (or more) with line-busting compots.

In other words, the net effect on pin-count difference between Alliance and Coalition is likely going to shift more towards the Alliance than it is to the Coalition if you max out PDU production. And that is the point, right?

Alliance play is all about delaying the fall of the Kzinti and Hydran capitals, and maximizing the damage done so that the Federation can survive the initial onslaught on turns 7-15. After that, it's a grind in which the Fed slowly gains dominance or the Coalition does.

Now, there's a lot more to it than that. The actual numbers and damage done vary based on net total compot, and the actual dice. But, quantitatively speaking, just in terms of pincount, I'd say the Alliance is better off building PDUs than building more ships.

The benefit is also felt in terms of building more stuff for longer, as taking out a fully defended capital usually takes at least two-three turns. I've done it before in just 1 turn, but I paid a *heavy* price in the other theater because I had inadequate ships in the other theater to defend.

In only one game, ever, have I taken out both the Kzinti and Hydran capitals in one turn - and that was because of an opponent's choice and good luck.

So. Yeah. I can say with confidence that it is definitely better (generally speaking) to build PDUs rather than extra ships. There could be exceptions for individual game circumstances, of course.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 05:59 pm: Edit

And here's the ultimate irony. I'm playing Alliance in this game! =)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 06:24 pm: Edit

You can overbuild RNs for 12 EP if you have free fighters (generally by not building UHs or CVs, to start with).

16.5 EP if you must pay for the fighters, about as good a deal as it can get if you want to overbuild to get compot.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, October 26, 2018 - 07:54 pm: Edit

so the cost of build and hopes of killing more enemy ships when they assault the capital.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:55 am: Edit

Well, taking on 20 PDU's probably isn't that bad, although it's not fun to take most of a line and toss it in the dead jar. A decent line that is taking on 20 PDU's is going to be at least 140 compot and if the defender is doing 35% the attacker should be doing 30%. So about 40 damage.

You kill 4 pdu's the first round, and have 18 minus points left. Then next round you do 40 damage, kill 2 PDU and have very few minus points. Anyways long term I think 4 / 2 / 4 / 2 / 4 / 2 / 2 is probably a little more likely. SAF's also change the math again.

Where it can get a little more in the coalitions favour is if the defender only has 8 PDU's and they build 4 more. Coalition comes in, kills 4 with a mauler, then leaves with minus points hanging. Alliance kills the mauler and does another 50 to 70 damage. 6 x CC's taking the damage is 12 to repair, plus the D6M for 10 to build (well 11.5 average one build and 1 conversion a turn). So depending what is lost in the pursuit fight (assuming that's the only fight) and the alliance has spent 28 building the pdu's the coalition hasn't lost much more than that. If the alliance is short of cash and can't afford to build the full line plus 4 pdu's, often the case about T4 for the Kzinti or T5 for the Hydran, then they have a tougher choice to make. At least the coalition gets to hold the alliance at 8 to 12 pdu's until they have assembled enough ships to take the whole capital.

Otherwise, as the alliance, I build PDU's and hope to get them up to 20 to protect the capital. If you can scare the coalition to stay out of the capital, then you don't have to spend points to rebuild your shipyards, and overtime you will make up any ships you didn't build at the time by keeping your shipyards active. Not even counting the income for holding the capital, even if all the other planets have been devastated.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:09 pm: Edit

SAFs also require to raise his BIR. Yikes!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Gregory, yes, but it's more the cost of build and hopes of killing more enemy ships. The capital (and the other of the two capitals) will live longer, and that delays the Coalition. Delay is good.

Richard's idea of overbuilding RNs is a good one if you use FFFs. You could have 6 overbuilt rangers for 84 EPs; not bad at all. That helps you maintain a killer line for longer.... but I'm not so sure that is better than delaying the Coalition by keeping your capital longer.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 27, 2018 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Oh, it isn't. The Hydrans need to build up the capital on turn three. You don't need to follow up each turn all the way to 20 if the Coalition isn't being too aggressive towards the Hydrans, but you need to be headed that way in case they do.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 08:50 am: Edit

T1C is complete.

Lyrans built TGC, BC, 4xCW, 2xDW, DWS, 3xFF, 3xCW(overbuilt), Convoy. Conversions, CA to DN and 3xCA to 3xCC. New colony started, and some Wyn trade.

Klingons built D7C, TGA, D6M, 8xD5, D5S, 6xF5, 2xE4, E4R, E4A, SAV. Activated 2xD6, 2xF5, 3xE4G, E4. Conversions, D6M, D6S, D6V, 2xD6D, F5S.

Combat, Red Claw fleet overran 0703 to 0803, left pin ships. Kzin Duke fleet including Auxes (less Reserve) was in deep space at 1003 and reacted to 0903. Red Claw moved to 0903 and Counts fleet (less Reserve) reacted into the hex. Red Claw stopped as it outnumbered the fleet and there were auxes present.

Majority of the home fleet hit 0803 including SAV.

Kzinti's sent both reserves to 0903 to ensure it could win the fight and it's Auxes didn't need to slow unit retreat.

At 0703 CA, FF survive the approach battle versus fighters and retreat to the neutral zone.

BATS 0803 goes down for fighters.

2 rounds fought at 0903 before Lyrans retreat to 0803. Lyrans lose CA dead, 2xcw, 3xdd crippled. No pursuit. Kzintis lose fighters and cripple 2xcvl, 2xcle, eff and retreat onto 0902 with 16 repair. Kzin had a tug ready to rescue ships, so there was no sense trying to kill an EFF.

End of turn, only 1 BATS dead but there are 60 Lyrans within range of 1401 for T2. Strong resv at 0705, couple random ships or POL at BATS 0502/0504 and some cripples on SB 0404. Kzin have about 50 SE at 0902. He can easily hit lyran BATS 0502, could get to 0504 as well without my ships at 0803 able to intercept, so a reserve could likely save one of them. Of course any ships that go to the 05xx hex won't make it back to defend the Duke's SB on T2C unless I do something like give him a small pin fight in the 06XX neutral zone that lets him bounce back an extra hex.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 09:56 am: Edit

T1A: Buy command point. Build TGC,2*FF, FCR, FFT, FFK, 4*PDU, and MON-V. Buy survey slot; convert BC->SR. Convert BC->CF. Convert FF->FFK.

Repair 2*CVL, 2*CLE, EFF.

Survey roll: 12. Activate POL.

3 Raids in Lyran space; 2 succeed; no casualties. Use APT to blockade run PT to Count's fleet in 902.

Operational: Dogpile What is effectively Red Claw, Home, and new construction in 803. 1 Lyran reserve, but it will only have one place to go. No other action in Lyran space.

Move a few other units around, but it's just clean up stuff.

Looks to be big fight in 803. Who will blink first?

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 10:03 am: Edit

Dana

537.223 i think will please you.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 10:05 am: Edit

Yeah, already told him.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 11:01 am: Edit

This could be very interesting. If the Kzin retreat, they will need to go to 0703 and other than a couple fast ships won't get home. If I retreat after a round I will lose a SAV and be out of range of 1401, which isn't the end of the game.

The Kzin will be about 85 SE to my 75 once the reserve moves. He will have about 75 ftrs. But once we are past those we are crippling ships one for one in deep space. Let's assume he can win the fight, although I should have a small compot advantage early. The fights close enough that if one side starts spending extra damage to direct and the other doesn't the side that lets it drop will probably win.

So what would happen if I crippled 70 lyran ships in exchange for 55ish kzinti ships. I mean, what are the T2 implications. I know the mythical situation where the kzin gets to show up and burn all of their fighters and leave is rare. But what if he needs to burn all of his fighters and then keep fighting?

I'm not looking for advice, I'd prefer not having any. But feel free to dogpile on post fight to say you should have did this different.

By Michael Mascitti (Mmascit) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 11:55 am: Edit

if there are 70 Lyran cripples and 55 Zin I think it plays out wonderfully for the Lyran. The Klingon North fleet and turn 1 production will be able to take Kzintai for a song and dance and the Northern reserve fleet takes the Dukes SB for 2 songs and a dance.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, November 02, 2018 - 12:40 pm: Edit

I'm not certain a song is the correct term. He has 12 pdu's, a SB, Mon plus full Marquis Resv and random auxes and maybe the fast ships get home. North Fleet plus T1 has minimal cruisers, a couple maulers, not a lot of D5's and a lot of F5/E4. There isn't any density to that fleet. He will still have a 250 pt or so compot first round and if I put out a 100 line round 2 it will drop as I can't replace the crippled cruisers. It's the lyrans that provide all the quality for any T2 capital raid. It takes the klingons a couple turns to gather the cream from the North, Northern Resv, new builds and TBS in a nice neat pile.

the Duke's SB can die, but cripples from the fight at 0803 can get back there and he can turn on some repair tugs with deficit spending to fix the carriers and keep it from being a complete gimme.

First quick count tells me that if I cripple a lot of Lyrans T2 they can fly to repair and T3 I can fix half of them. So it's T5 before they all get back. However a lot of crippled Kzin will seriously dent his economy.