You do.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 12:31 pm: Edit

The Lyran SIT shows 1.0 salvage for all large auxes and 0.5 for all small. I believe the other Empires all have similar values. If we aren't supposed to collect salvage for them then I would think that's a misprint.

I mean, it's not a game changing amount, but seeing how I am likely to retreat first (I have to out roll him by and average of 3 or 4 every round to win) I might as well give them up as damage in the main fighting, collect salvage and do an extra cripple to him. Compared to watching them get run over in slow unit pursuit getting me nothing.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 12:50 pm: Edit

You do get salvage for aux's. Really!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Oh, hey. Look at that. (439.21) specifically says Auxiliaries do produce salvage, despite being non ship units.

Why did I think Auxes did not produce salvage? Was that rule changed at some point? Or clarified? Or something?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Just a glance at my AO 2003 rulebook SIT -- aux salvage has been there for over 15 years (or maybe even more).

This is just another case where player misunderstanding or assumption paradigms meet the reality within the rulebook. It's also just another good reason you guys play and post these on the BBS so that other can learn.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 06:00 pm: Edit

It's possible I conflated "no salvage for things killed in pursuit" with "no salvage for Auxes" in the "Hey, these slow pursuit rules are non-sensical!" discussions.

I've only every played a few games with salvage at this point, so, well, makes sense that I'm not 100% up on those rules :-)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 05, 2018 - 01:41 pm: Edit

The kicker is that I've faced a couple of 6/1 splits (his way). That's rough. But I can't control the dice. /me shrugs.

Otherwise, as Dana has said. With his directing, what was a likely win is now a certain win. I'll collect another ship or three on pursuit.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Monday, November 05, 2018 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Getting that 6/1 Hydran/Coalition split over the Hydran capital in the first round or two can throw a war schedule off by quite a bit.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 08:29 am: Edit

So 10 rounds in we are at 333 damage done by the Lyrans to 289 done by the Kzin. With roughly equal lines although the Kzin has been bigger by a few points in most rounds. Only 1 round where the Kzin fired into a -1 shift from EW. On dice Ted hasn't out rolled me once. We have tied 5 rounds and I beat him by 1 on 2 rounds and then I think by 3, 4 and 5 on the other 3.

The Lyrans have a dead LAV and SAV plus 42 cripples and 18 dead fighters. The cripples are 4xCC, 13xCW, 5xDW, 9xCL, 10xDD, SC.

The Kzins have dead TGC/BP, LAV, 2xSAD plus 23 cripples and 60 fighters. The cripples are DNL, CC, 4xBC, DF, 3xCVS, 2xTGC/VP, CVL, 6xCLE, 2xEFF, 2xFFK. He still needs to take 30 damage for round 10. There are 34 fighters remaining before round 10 damage.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 09:17 am: Edit

So I'm looking at this, and noticed:
>>Kzin had a 138 w/ 6 EW pt line and the Lyran 127 w/ 5 EW.>>

How are these teams getting compost this high on T1? The Kzinti only have CLEs and EFFs and not even that many CVs?

Could you post, for example, the first round combat lines?

Thanks!

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 09:38 am: Edit

ADM and command point by each side. Lyrans can afford the CP and the Kzins need to win.

Kzin LAV(FRM), 2xDN(ADM), TGC(BP), DNL, 3xCC, CD, CVS(PT), CLE, EFF, BC, TG(SP), 3xDB - 138/6

Lyran LAV(FRM), 2xDN(ADM), TGC(BP), BC(PT), BC, (3xCW, 2xDW, DWS), 2xCC, TGP(SP) - 127/5

So first round I chose to kill the Battle tug, I could have also got the DNL, there were good choices either way.

After the first couple rounds our lines dropped into the low 120's. He lost the battle tug and LAV, self crippled the DNL for big minus points one round and the hid a DN and put the other in the form. I ran out of CW'S and am just running out of CL'S and DD's, I'm going to have 6 FF's on the line soon and even with a command point will see my line drop into the 90's.

But we each started the fight with all of our cool toys.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 10:16 am: Edit

Dana Madsen's 9:38 AM post reminds me of a question that I have wondered about but never gotten around to asking.

Under the S.8 "Patrol Battle" rules in SFB, you can only have one Size Class 2 unit in a battle force. I was aware that there was no such rule in F&E and have wondered how often it occurs that a player will put up a line with multiple SC2 units in it, for maximum density. Is it fairly common, once in a blue moon, or somewhere in between?

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 10:34 am: Edit

I will use multiple SC2 units when they are available and in the following situations:

1. I am reasonably sure they cannot be destroyed.

2. Capital assault or late war planetary or starbase assault on a round when I really need the COMPOT and can afford to lose the ship.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 10:34 am: Edit

For my experience. Fairly regular at capital assaults, the attacker needs multiple DN's when dealing with SB and many PDU's. Pretty rare in deep space fights like this, each side may put up one and protect it in the form bonus box. Will sometimes happen at big SB assaults where the attacker really wants to win and have some extra punch.

Regular races only get one new DN a year, although the Lyrans can convert CA's to get more. So most of the time people try and keep them safe.

As mentioned, we got ourselves into a strange setup T1 with this fight. I'm not convinced I made the right choice to fight, maybe I should have left after the first round, although winning a number of die rolls has made it easier.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 11:39 am: Edit

dana

when you go back and try to work through this branch, you need to remember the zin *don't* need to win. they can scuttle 0703 before op move. it makes an awkward engagement even worse for the lyrans.

like i said, zin first is my pet project, but i've never quite found a sequence that i like. there are just a ton of opportunities to saddle yourself with a pile of cripples just as the hydrans declare "miscount pins by one and lose the entire war!".

if the zin send the auxes and spend a command point, you've gained something because they won't be in 1401 when you raid. the auxes don't retro to the capital which means you're guaranteed the option to kill them on CT2, and they will/would be self killed for 1/3 as much damage as you spent in this battle.

AFAIK the battle that happened here is inevitable in zin first, and optimizing it verrry carefully is the most important single thing in planning the whole strat. the snowballing is real, one direction or the other.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 11:49 am: Edit

Ted and I discussed that before alliance op moves.

There was a ruling Mar 17, 2017. Search for 301.914. Quoting last relevant part, Bases cannot be scuttled unless the empire is at 50 percent exhaustion or the base is no longer connected to the main supply grid.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Yeah, they changed the scuttling rules fairly recently. This came up in a previous game between Jason and myself, where it became apparent that the scuttling rules had changed, that the on T1, the Kzinti are hosed in a lot of ways if the Lyrans decide to not kill 0703.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 12:29 pm: Edit

On round 10 the Kzin crippled a CVL, CLE, EFF and a BC plus fighters.

Then I ran.

In pursuit he finally out rolled me by 1 (ew modified it down to even) and he killed 2xCL and I crippled the scout tug to resolve the rest. I let damage drop and he crippled CVE, EFF and BF.

So overall he has 30 crippled ships including 7 of 8 major carriers. I have 42 cripples. My out rolling him meant that either I saved myself about 7 cripples or he took 7 extra, or some combo like that.

I talked big about crippling my whole fleet to get most of his but my compot was dropping into the 90's and he could still put up 108. I was going to start crippling 2 FF to get one of his ships. Seemed like a good time to bail.

Start of next turn I still have a force here that can bust the Counts SB with 2xDN's, 2xBC and a couple CA's and lots of FF for pin count. Plus a few CW that were getting repaired from T1C. So he will have to think about where he wants to retrograde to and how much repair ship deficit spending to burn.

If anyone wants to comment on your perspective of he wisdom of this fight for either side. Feel free to now.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Like many SFB players I have almost no actual playing experience with F&E but have studied it since it was first released. It seems too me that if you are wanting to take out the Kzinti right away that any opportunity to cripple or kill Kzinti ship that doesn't take place over PDU's is a good one.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 01:33 pm: Edit

I think it is worth it if the Lyrans can limit the use of a good Kzinti line when raiding the capital or (even better) can afford to let damage fall in capital raids due to the Kzinti being short on ships. It is a question of whether the Klingons and whatever is left of the Lyran fleet can exploit the situation.

On the whole I would take that bet if I were flying the Lyrans but then I like carnage in my F&E and am not 100% it is the best call.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 01:49 pm: Edit

The view from my peanut gallery is that the battle was a huge success for the Lyrans.

Kzinti lost some 'good' hulls (TGC+BP, LAV and SAD's) and the Lyrans will pretty quickly get those cripples all repaired - by the end of turn 3, almost all those ships should be back in action (5 x SB, 5 BATS is 100 repair points - although depending on where the Lyrans ended up Far Stars and 411 may be out of range.... - and FRD's can be used to help - plus Klingon BATS).

902/1304 will be vulnerable and so the Kzinti have 2 SB's to use on turn 2 (a third in range on turn 3), plus possibly 2 FRD's....and so will probably be turn 4 before the bulk gets completed.

Field Repair will get key ships repaired - but the Kzinti can't afford much - with say a 50 Ep repair bill!!

Even with the extra cripples for outrolling - the Kzinti can't afford to take those losses on turn 1 I think.

Although the Kzinti can probably keep 1401 Kzinti owned on turn 2 - the SB's and outer planets will go for very little gain I think.

I think an aggressive Lyran player on turn 1 can gain a lot (might be wrong)…..and the loss of CEDS I think will show the Kzinti can't do what they did here (as although the cost is still high - CEDS would have cheaply got say 15 hulls back into action - enough to turn weak 902/1304 forces into modest force (and also use the repair capacity on the SB's before they probably die!).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 02:56 pm: Edit

My own assessment is that I came out the loser. However, I think that has more to do with me being *badly* out rolled. On more even odds I would have had about 5-7 fewer cripples (this is a big deal) because he would have bailed sooner. I think he would have roughly the same number of cripples, but I would have fewer. I still would have lost the TGC, LAV, and SADs.

The loss of the TGC hurts a bit, but it is hardly definitive. Costs me 3 compot a round for maybe 10 rounds over the capital. The LAV is hard, but not overwhelmingly so. The SADs are no big deal, really. They only help with impunity over the capital (normally speaking), and I can replace one before the major assault.

However, I did cripple 43 Lyrans (he crippled scout tug on retreat) and bagged 2 CLs on pursuit. I picked the CLs so they won't grow up.

That 43 ships, IMO - and they are all good ships - will slow the Coalition advance considerably on CT2 and CT3. Due to retrograde range, I doubt that more than half will be back in action at the end of CT3. Thus, they won't be *really* back in action until CT4 or CT 5. (Move back CT2, repair and redeploy CT3, in use CT4 - but not all can be repaired CT3, so some not back till CT5).

Because I forced this on *my* turn the delay is considerable. I seriously doubt the situation is as dire as Paul Howard makes it out to be.

But I did pay a heavy butcher bill, and I am starting to have doubts whether it was truly worth it.

But like I said, time will tell. I've never been this aggressive as the Alliance before.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Ted

You extracted a fair bill - but I think the turn 2 attack will be very cheap for the Coalition.

With so few many crippled ships - the Kzinti will probably see 1 SB undefended - although the reserve might help defend it then, I think reserves will need to go to 1401 IF the Klingons decide to go for the jugular?

Will be interesting to see how the next few turns go!!

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 04:05 pm: Edit

A couple of comments:

A. Trevor - I always build oodles of Lyran DN's, and they regularly go on the line. Even if the Alliance takes every opportunity to kill them (mostly works only over significant defenses) you will generally build more than they can kill. 6 DN build/convert per year for the Klingons/Lyrans (a bit less on the first couple of turns) adds up rather quickly, and provides the coalition a fairly significant compot advantage, sometimes even over fixed defenses. That adds up rather well over time. The last game I played the Lyrans lost some 28 DN class ships (3 DNP/9DN over the Gorn shipyard on the last turn) but still had 20 ish left over on C25 when the game ended.

Kzinti BATS 0703. It seems to me that in the above sort of situation, could the Kzinti not just retreat to 0703 then retrograde to 1202? I would think it should be reasonably easy to arrange that possibility. At 1202 you still block any Lyrans going to 1401, and can react in to 1401 to any Klingon attack. You could get all pinned on 1202, but then you still are stopping that many SE's from reaching 1401. Not ideal, but should be a lot less worse than the implied majority of the Kzinti fleet stuck on 0703 for C2.

Tim.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 04:19 pm: Edit

The LAV loss is not a big deal, I think the Kzinti's still have another to put over Kzintai.

Depot use for less important ships can lower the eventual repair bill.