Paul,

I don't think so. After field repair - and accounting for 43 *good* Lyran ships no longer on the field, I think I can mount a decent defense of both Duke's and Count's SBs, and also have enough left over on 1401.

Yes. I will have fewer ships than I *would* have had to defend - but most Zin don't cripple that many ships over Duke's and Count's SBs anwyay - and the riff-raff generally don't factor that much over 1401.

I'm not definitely stating that my tactic was a success - but I really don't think it's as bad as you think.

As you said, though, we'll see.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 04:41 pm: Edit

I wouldn't really call Lyran CLs good. :p

Imo, crippling a bunch just gives the Lyrans an excuse to depot em and make darn sure they are ready for conversion. CL scouts also come to mind.

I don't remember if the Lyrans lost any aux's. I like building Lyran (and Klingon) aux's for the early game, tend to stack em in a spot (Lumien is great) for local fighter superiority over the Kzinti. The Kzinti have more issue making killer lines than the Hydrans, so they tend to be safer in the Kzinti theatre.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 07:19 pm: Edit

By "good" I mean useful in putting up good combat lines. I don't mean "really good".

Let's get quantitative, shall we? Here's the tale of the tape:

Lyran KIA: 2*CL, LAV, SAV
Lyran WIA: 4*CC, 13*CW (all of them), 7*CL, 5*DW, 7*DD, SC (37 SEQ of ships crippled)
Lyran forces remaining in the ZTO: 2*DN, BT, 2*BC, CC, 2*CA, CF, JGP, CL, 15*FF, DWS, SC, 3*DDG, DWT, FFT (34 SEQ)


Kzinti KIA: TGC/BP, LAV, 2xSAD
Kzinti WIA: DNL, CC, 5xBC, CL, DF, 3xCVS, 2xTGC/VP, 2*CVL, CVE, 6xCLE, 3xEFF, 2xFFK (28 SEQ of ships crippled, not counting fighters, which counted as half would bring me to 31.5 or as a whole would bring me to 35 SEQ)
Kzinti FF Used: 69

Kzinti forces remaining (Excluding Marquis and Baron and excluding some other AUXes in the homeworld, counts, and duke's fleets): 2*DN, 2*CC, 3*BC, CL, 2*DD, FFK, 4*FF, CVL, 2*CVE, 4*EFF, 3*FCR, CD, SDF, 2*DF, TGT+S, 3*SF, CLG, 2*FFG, SAV, SAS (37 SEQ plus 4.5 FF).


So, I haven't done field repair. However, it looks like the Lyrans lost the use of 37 SEQ for 2 whole turns (and probably 17 SEQ for 3 whole turns) - most of which are "decent" - and I lost the use of 28 SEQ (or 31.5 or 35 depending on how you count fighters) for 1-2 turns.

Overall, not what the disparity I really wanted. However, I *was* out rolled in a rather dramatic way.

Had I turtled up, then I would have 119 SEQ against 171 SEQ. Now I have 84 SEQ against 134 SEQ. The advantage was 1.43 to 1; now the advantage is 1.60 to 1.

Thus, the pincount disparity and the econ definitely came out pro-Lyran. However, he has fewer ships to last in a capital assault, and most of what is on the map (including Klingons) is "riff-raff".

The only saving grace part of this is that the Lyran WIA will be out *at least* two turns (C2 return, C3 repair and redeploy), and for some of them 3 turns.

My ships will be mostly back next turn. Some will be back *this* turn with field repair, but the pincount disparity is still probably going to be in the Lyran's favor.

Oh, I did get one other thing: the Lyrans cannot threaten 1401. Before he could threaten 1401 with a massive fleet.

On balance, I still think this strategy may work in my favor, despite the heavy economic price and SEQ disparity. Because no Lyran can threaten 1401 on C2, and because the Klingons that can reach 1401 are mostly riff-raff, I doubt he will take on Kzintai itself. Doing so would result in some rather severe casualties (though he *could* certainly raid the capital planet to kill some of the PDUs I just put up there). However, without the heavy Lyrans to back him up, he simply can't do that. Even C3 he will have to pay a heavy price without that workload of Lyran CWs to help.

At 84 SEQ, I still have plenty to put decent fleets at Count's and Duke's SBs (at least 15 ships apiece). That puts 50 SEQ PLUS RESERVES that can defend the capital.

And, again, that is before I field repair.

Overall, I feel quite confident that I have enough ships to prevent the Klingons and Lyrans from purchasing territory as cheaply as some of you think. I also think that it's not unlikely that I have delayed taking the Kzinti capital by 1 turn and that is a good thing.

His stated goal was to take Kzintai by C5 or C6. That's till quite doable, but now it is more likely to be C6. But by preventing those heavy ships from reaching Kzintai on C2, it is more likely I can build up to 16 or 20 PDUs, which in turns means a much heavier casualty burden when he finally does get around to reducing the capital.

Anyway, while I'm not happy about being out rolled so badly (costing me more ships than I would have expected) I *still* think that overall - strategically speaking I came out ahead in this exchange.

Economically, I lost. Tactically, I lost. Strategically, I won (at least I believe I did).

Which is kind of weird if you think about it. Lose the battle, win the war?

Dunno. The rest of you can make of these numbers what you please.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Oh, I still need to add up the DB (it's complicated). But it will be substantial.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Remember SAD/LAD get free DB.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 09:03 pm: Edit

I killed the SAD's on Round 2 and 4. That's what makes it a little more complicated. Some rounds he paid for 4, some for 8, and some for 12 points of DB.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 10:20 pm: Edit

I'll agree with a bunch of Ted's analysis, 3 posts up, but quibble with a couple.

I have 40 SE of cripples, there are 10 crippled DD's, not 7. Our count got out of sync.

I have a few more Lyran ships ready for the ZTO on T2. There are 4 CW's, 3 DD's, and a FF that were getting repaired or doing stuff and are close enough to hit the Counts SB or 701/703.

A little judicious field repair, or saving his money and using rapid combat repair when I commit to a fight can juice his SE count some. A partially crippled carrier group can defend in front of a major planet or SB versus a moderate line. If Ted has money left and doesn't hit maximum deficit spending then a crippled bc or cc could get repaired at a SB by rapid repair if I commit to taking it down. It won't fight first round but can fight in the 2nd, 3rd etc. So retrograde a cripple to the Count's, if I show up with enough to kill the SB he can choose to fix the CC after the first round. If I only come to pin the SB he can not repair it and save the cash with regular repair start of next turn.

I expect that a couple TG/VP will get field repaired. It's probably an efficient way to add 6 ftrs each and in front of SB with a DD medium adhoc escort can serve adequately to shoot klingons. He has plenty of EFF's to go around if he strips them off the CVE's which really don't last long on the line anyways.

If I had held 0803 with most of my fleet (ie if he turtled) I had every intention of hitting 1401 with most of the Lyran fleet and the Klingon North + T1. Enough to devastate the minor planets and maybe strip 4 PDU's off the homeworlds.

I left early enough that I should be able to fix the majority of the ships that got broke this round on T3. Some of them will also end up on nearby Klingon BATS and within range of attacking something on T3. The only way that there will be a big T4 backlog is if we get a big fight at the Count's SB and I cripple another 15. Also, for every $ the Kzinti can think about spending on repair ships the Lyrans can probably spend 3.

Finally, the Kzinti's don't have unlimited money. If I can effectively reduce some of his on map income my T2. Combined with him being near max deficit after repair ships, and having a big repair bill next turn plus 4 new pdu's. I bet the Kzinti's will have tough choices on what they can afford to build next turn. Can they afford another command point for when I come into the capital.

I'm not giving up the T5 goal yet. I kept my DN's healthy, next turn I'll build/convert 2 more which will strat move to 1407 area. On T3 I should have 6 DN/C8's plus some good support ships to go in and strip the first 6 to 10 pdu's.

Finally on the luck. I did get lucky. But part of it was I was in a position where it affected me less. If luck had went the other way I could have left a round or 3 earlier. I didn't need to be committed to the fight. Because the Kzin were retreating the wrong way if they left, when the dice went wrong they couldn't just leave the fight. They were stuck with the outcome for as long as I wanted to fight.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 11:39 pm: Edit

A tug with 6 fighters must have at least two escorts, so a DD would be insuffucuient.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 02:47 am: Edit

"Kzinti BATS 0703. It seems to me that in the above sort of situation, could the Kzinti not just retreat to 0703 then retrograde to 1202? I would think it should be reasonably easy to arrange that possibility. At 1202 you still block any Lyrans going to 1401, and can react in to 1401 to any Klingon attack. You could get all pinned on 1202, but then you still are stopping that many SE's from reaching 1401. Not ideal, but should be a lot less worse than the implied majority of the Kzinti fleet stuck on 0703 for C2."

1202 is not ideal - as the Lyrans could send crippled ships here to help pin it.

and really weird point....

"SAD/LAD"

Why did my brain read it as Salad?

What's Salad got to do with the game ????

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 09:32 am: Edit

@Paul: LOL, now that's funny.

Like the time when I saw a commercial on the TV for a blender advertised as a "Vitamin Extractor".

I was working on the laptop and not really paying attention, so my distracted brain heard "Vermin Extractor".

For a blender commercial it made me look up!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 11:32 am: Edit

A1 is done.

I have about 14-15 SEQ on Count's and Duke's SBs (plus a crippled cruiser on each). I have about 11 SEQ of warships and about 20 or so SEQ total on Kzintai. I have about 21 SEQ of reserves on Marquis SB. There's about 25 SEQ of cripples, some of which are on 1401, but the bulk of which are offmap.

I will definitely be more vulnerable on CT2. The Klingons should have an easy time taking the outer planets. The Lyrans and Klingons could definitely take Counts or Duke's SB; however, I doubt they have enough SEQ to take Duke's SB *and* make a serious capital raid.

It remains to be seen whether he will want to take the SBs relatively cheaply or if he's going to make a serious capital raid on CT2.

If it were me (and this is just me being honest) I would take both SBs for "relatively cheap" by plopping some 35-40 SEQ on each, and then busting up the BATS and planets. The Zin can't really afford to defend much of anything outside of the important SBs and capital. I would probably send some 30-40 SEQ to the capital. It's lightly defended, meaning I could strip some of the outer PDUs on the cheap. It would force 1-2 reserves to go to 1401.

This strategy would allow me to focus more forces on 1401 on CT3, and reduce the Zin economy more quickly.

But that is my usual strategy - it's just made much easier with the relative dearth of defending ships.

On the other hand, with a declared Zin first policy, I could see a good reason to pin Duke's and Count's (barely), send all available Klingons to the capital, and wreck only a few outer BATS. Doing so would strip a bunch of capital defenses, allowing the Klingons to leave with a bunch of minus points and maybe 4*PDU stripped off of Kzintai.

However, the butcher bill would be very high for doing so, as I would have enough forces to exact a heavy toll. And his repair capacity is hardly infinite. And this strategy would give the Zin more EPs for a turn or two.

Dunno; I can see both strategies working. Let's see what Dana actually decides to do.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 04:02 pm: Edit

T2C Economy

Lyrans had 3.5 salvage from T1, EOT balance of 5.

Build DN, TGC, 4xCW, 2xDW, DWS, 3xFF, SAF (use FTL), FRD. Convert CA->DN, 3xCA->3xCC, dd->SC. They also spend 6 on repair. Purchase a command point, plus send 4 more EP to WYN and continue building a colony.

Klingons build C8, TGA, D6M, 8xD5, D5S, 6xF5, 2xE4, E4R, free E4A and PRD at 1407. Mothball activiations are 2xD6 (convert to D6M, D6S), 2xF5, and E4, E4G, 2xE3. Conversions as above D6M, D6S, D6V@1509, D6D at TBS and D6D at S. Resv.

Klingon and Lyran Prime Teams performed E&S raids. Lyrans failed to sabotage the Kzinti economy, however the Klingons successfully hijacked a crippled cc from the Duke's SB and brought it back to 1307. Both teams were unharmed.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Moves have started.

Right now, Count's SB is pinned with a fleet that is mostly FF's but led by a DN (ADM) and has a few CW's. Just enough that Ted will have to consider whether he wants to fight an approach to burn fighters as I have a stronger force. I could have killed it by not attacking 1001 or 1202 (see below), but all of my repair in the area is going to be saturated. I should get the planets for cheap, and I'll have enough newly repaired Lyran ships within range on 0902 to hit it next turn. Whereas if I killed it this turn those ships wouldn't have much to do.

BATS 0701, 0703 and 1004 are being attacked by fleets of Lyran cripples with a couple of good ships to absorb some damage on. No Kzin reserves can respond and their are no ships on them so I'll be able to select BIR and keep the intensity from getting too high.

Lyrans used the rest of the Red Claw fleet to attack 1001 and 1202, both have monitors, 1202 could be saved by a reserve.

Some of Klingon T2 new builds hit BATS 1405 and planet 1506, joined by the SAV/LAV's from North and Northern Resv to take losses. A reserve here might kill an Aux CV.

Klingon NResv hit the Duke's fleet with what should be just enough to drop it, or at least cripple it, depends on dice. However it could easily be saved by a Kzinti reserve. Other than a few ships rest of the NResv hit planet 1504, be a good fight if a reserve showed up.

At this point it looks like most of Klingon North fleet plus T1 builds are going into the capital. Ted will probably want at least one of his reserves to show up here, maybe both.

Planet 1105, BATS 1205 and 1605 are untouched and I'm about out of ships to go after them.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Both reserves to 1401.

By Stefano Predieri (Preda) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 04:39 am: Edit

Point on the Lyran production. Building a SAF using an FTL is a major conversion. You can't do both that and the CA->DN conversion.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 08:24 am: Edit

Now that's an interesting contradiction. The SITs specify the consuming an FTL to produce an SAF is a _conversion_ of an FTL, but rule 521.62 specifies that removing an FTL at the shipyard reduces the _build_ cost of an SAF, rather than being a conversion.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 10:26 am: Edit

Very interesting. Jason, thanks for posting that on Q&A.

Between Dana and myself, only, I propose that we go with saying it's BUILD, not a conversion (meaning that he can both convert the DN and also give up a FTL to reduce the cost of the SAF). This has always been my understanding. Besides, I think a rule written-out in English will take precedence over a chart known to have typos. But, that's just me.

If the ruling goes the other way, then we'll go with the ruling going forward.

Dana?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 11:04 am: Edit

An SAF is composed (presumably) of suicide and troop ships. Presumably the use of an FTL or FTS provides those troop ships hence the discount. Presumably nothing actually gets converted when they are used that way. (In my opinion).

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 11:09 am: Edit

I've proposed to Ted that based on answer to the question I will pay another 5 EP if required for a regular build. The Lyrans had over 10 EP left as a balance at end of econ.
The conversion slot belongs to the DN though.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 11:31 am: Edit

I'm flexible.

And what Richard says makes sense and supports my view. Probably the way the ruling will come down.


@Stephano: Thanks for catching that discrepancy!!!!

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 11:32 am: Edit

In the meantime, would you mind posting what ships are in 1401 for the battle this turn? I assume all moves are done.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 12:28 pm: Edit

It's an interesting situation where neither of us has enough ships.

Kzintai (attack Minor) - TGA(DP/BP) (FRM), 3xD7, [3xD5, 3xF5], E4G, F5, F5S(SCT) - 80/2 (I'm just accepting the -2 shift here)

Keevarsh (attack Major) - D7C, FD7(FRM), 2xD6, D6J, [2xF5L, 4xF5], D5S(SCT) - 68/3

Vielsalm (attack Minor #1) - D7C(ADM), D6M, [D6V, E4A, E4A], [3xD5, 3xF5], E4G, D6S - 73/4

Vronket (Major) - TGA(DP/BP)(FRM), D6M, D6(PT), [D5(MMG), D5, F5L, 3xF5], E4, D6D, F5G, E4G - 79/3


In the Kzintai system: All initial cripples (DNL, BF, BC, 2*FFK, CLE, 2*TGC). DN, 2*BC, TGT+S, LAV, SAV, LAD, SAD, FTS, FHL. In addition there's the MON-V, 3*FFT (setting up MB), FRD.

In the Vielsalm system: {CVL,2*EFF}, 2*CL, FF, FFG.

Mobile forces (also designates the CVs): ADM, MMG, PT, DN, BC, 2*BF, FF, {CVS,CL,EFF}, {CVL,CL,EFF}, TGT+BB (NAKED), CD, CLG, SF, LAS, FTL, FTS, FHL

Your forces (just to confirm and also to have it in the email): ADM, MMG, PT, 2*{TGA+BD}, 2*D7C, 2*D6M, 3*D7, FD7, 3*D6, 8*D5, 3*F5L, 14*F5, 3*E4, D6V, 3*E4A, D6S, D5S, F5S, D6D, D6J, F5G, 3*E4G, E4R.


In addition to these, the Coalition has 2*E4, E4A, and E4R in reserve.


Here's a table Dana put together.

	Atk	Def	Ftr	EW			Atk	Def	Ftr	EW
TGA(DP/BP)	12	12		1		DN(ADM)	12	12
TGA(DP/BP)	12	12		1		DN(MMG)	12	12
D6M	10	4				BC	8	8
D6M	10	4				CL	6	6
D7C(ADM)	9	9				FF	4	4
D7C	9	9				CVL(PT)	10	8	4.5
D7	8	8				EFF	2	4
D7	8	8				EFF	2	4
D7	8	8				CD	7	8		2
FD7	7	8				TGT(SP)	4	8		4
D6 (PT)	9	8				CLG	2	6
D6 (MMG)	7	8
D6	7	8
D6J	6	8				LAV	1	4	12
D5	7	7				LAD	6	4
D5	7	7				LAS	0	4		3
D5	7	7				FTL
D5	7	7				FTS
D5	7	7				FTS
D5	7	7				FHL
D5	7	7				FHL
D5	7	7
F5L	6	6				dnl
F5L	6	6				bf
F5L	6	6				bc
F5	5	5				ffk
F5	5	5				ffk
F5	5	5				cle
F5	5	5				tgc
F5	5	5				tgc
F5	5	5
F5	5	5				CVS	10	10	6
F5	5	5				BC	8	8
F5	5	5				BC	8	8
F5	5	5				BF	7	8
F5	5	5				CL	6	6
F5	5	5				CL	6	6
F5	5	5				EFF	2	4
F5	5	5
D6V	6	8	5			BF	7	8
E4A	2	4				CL	6	6
E4A	2	4				FF	4	4
E4A	2	4				CVL	8	8	4.5
F5G	2	5				TGT/VP	4	8	6
E4	4	4				EFF	2	4
E4	4	4				SF	2	4		1
E4	4	4				FFG	1	4
E4R	1	4	6
E4G	2	4
E4G	2	4				12 PDU	36	36	72
E4G	2	4				MON/PAL	10	6	6
D5S	3	7		3		SB	36	36	12
D6S	4	8		4
D6D	7	8		2
F5S	2	5		1
	315	339	11	12			239	266	123	10

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 12:30 pm: Edit

The table should also show 20 more PDUs, as none have been stripped yet. That increases compot and defpot by the Zin by another 180 each.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Fantastic, thanks. I always thought of capital assaults as a turn-within-a-turn and miss that they don't usually get reported on in as much detail (usually just like it was a regular battle.)

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, November 09, 2018 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Without the Lyrans adding a DN, BC and a number of CA's and CW's the turn 2 capital assault by the Klingons is fairly anemic.

However it's not that the kzinti's have large lines either. Best I can really say is that it means everywhere else I hit is a success as no reserves showed up.