Archive through November 28, 2018
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Archive through November 28, 2018
My puzzlement was not about 'what is an LAD', as I know well. :p
If it lasts 20 rounds before destruction, assume it does 6 dmg x 20 rounds x 33.25%, very roughly 40 damage.
Five D7 would be crippled by that amount of damage (perhaps 10 EP to repair, maybe some CDR to offset a bit of that or even depot). These estimates are giving the Kzinti the benefit of the doubt; I feel it is likely that the Kzinti won't get this much damage and the Coalition will cripple at least some ships that are cheaper to repair than D7s to take the added damage.
Getting 20 rounds at a relatively high damage coefficient is probably not going to happen though.
Generally I just do my best to make sure I have at least 3 of the 4 initial aux drone ships survive to defend (3 SAD will do) over Kzintai) to avoid these sort of decision making proecesses. :p
Yeah, I wasn't smart with my initial SADs. But there were a few other calculations.
The initial rounds of a SB assault are all-the-more punishing. Every damage point when you do 110+ damage is especially telling, and that means more compot.
If he directs the LAD it's 18 damage which costs him half a round. More damage.
Also, I'm concerned he take Kzintai on C4. Don't want that. LAD helps ensure I'll stay on Kzintai on C4. Maybe.
Maybe not the best thing to do, but I'm still getting mission critical ships.
Note that you could (your choice to save the EPs) have DBB in early rounds without using an LAD. It does give you +2 compot over a DBB unit.
True that. But what is done is done.
DBB?
Drone BomBardment
A rather pathetic showing for the first stasis mauler fight in the game. With a plethora of targets and 2 attempts the stasis cruiser failed to freeze anything first round (it was trying for the Hydran Fire support tug) and got defender selects 2nd round. So a LN didn't get to fight. My D6M ignored the easy LN kill to direct on the TG/FSP. Ted killed the D7A and then crippled BATS 0413 first round. Second round we exchanged a D6M for a RN and third round he finished off the BATS losing another RN. He then retreated and didn't try to get my 2 SAV in slow unit. It wasn't worth the damage he was going to take to fight through until I needed to retreat
Looks like there will be some pain for the Lyrans….
...although an aggressive Hydrans on turn 3 is about the only big smile the Alliance gets until the Feds get up to speed!!
The LGE's are perhaps the most under noticed* 'add on' ships in the game - but a pair of them can cause a lot of damage (7 hexes of movement, 34 Compot, 12 fighters - so more than enough to kill a under defended BATS) but perhaps 2 x LGE and 1 x CU/HN is the ideal pinning force - 7 equivalents and if jumped on by a reserve - the CU/HN dies.
* - Partially due to the face Hydrans can't afford to build more of them 
Anyway - will 411 die...…
Looks like 0411 will go down in 1 to 3 more rounds unless he flinches. After 4 rounds I have 7 SIDS, dead SC and FHL (self killed), and cripples cc, cf, 4xdd, ddg, ff. He has 2xKN and 2xCU dead (self killed) plus crippled 3xdg, 3xln, PGS, LNG and needs to resolve 28 for round 4 which will likely some HN but he will need to cripple cruisers as well. He only has enough ftrs left for the ships on the line.
I've used up my tricks. Modified SB EW for 1 extra point each round to give him a -1. So that's been worthwhile in terms of damage given up vs taken. I've used rapid combat repair on 2 DD to get some extra fighting. Dice have been close to even, I have rolled 12 in 4 rounds and Ted has got 11 but then EW has dropped that.
So he could give up fighters and leave this round but he may not get a good chance to come back. I have 3 CA and a BC left I could cripple, but he has 9 uncrippled CA/CC/TG here plus 4 HN. If I cripple my CA's next round my compot will drop, then I will have to start giving him SB fighters and the last SIDS. He can just outlast me. If I cripple just about every ship here my CA will head home and become more DN's and the rest will be back on T6.
However his force is the main defense on retrograde for the expeditionary SB which is going to face an untouched Klingon West fleet. So the trade off is going to be I lose my southern Lyran bases but the Klingons have an easier T4 attack. Klingon Home and SR can only hit border BATS next turn. I'll have to think on whether I have the Lyrans try to reestablish a MB or whether I call this area of space a wasteland.
For that damage Dana noted I crippled DG, 3*HN, HNG, and 4 fighters. I will be down 1 fighter next round.
This round (round 5) he has to take 25 and I have to take 31.
My uncrippled ships: DG, LB, LM, 3*RN, TG+A, TG+S, 2*FCR. I have 27 fighters left.
His uncrippled ships: BC, 3*CA, TGC+S, SB (7*SIDS, 11 Fighters).
He could take 25 by crippling 3*CA and another fighter. Theoretically he could stick around another round and cripple the BC and the TGC and then take more fighters and maybe a SIDS or three to cripple the SB. It's highly unlikely the SB will go down next round if he chooses to stay.
I can take 31 by crippling 3-4 cruisers and fighters. Which hurts, but I will still have 4 uncrippled ships to his 2.
If it were me playing Lyran.... I would risk one more round to make me cripple another few cruisers. After that, he will have nothing but cripples and a mangled SB with few (if any fighters) and sticking around will require him to start self-killing wholesale. I'm not *that* far behind, but it's close enough I doubt he'll risk it.
Question is, does he want the uncrippled BC and scout tug around for C4 and C5? If so, he leaves after this round. If not, he fights 1 more round.
We will see...
Quote:Note that you could (your choice to save the EPs) have DBB in early rounds without using an LAD. It does give you +2 compot over a DBB unit.
I don’t understand this statement — can someone please explain it? Thanks.
buying drones is cheaper than buying aux drone ships for the "free" bombardment. but the LAD can throw 6 bombardment factors and all the other available zin drone ships can only apply 4
It was focused as a response to some things Ted said previously where he explained how the LAD would be good because of the extra compot in an early battle round over Kzintai, where extra damage is extra valuable.
Basically my meaning was that you could get most of the use of an LAD out of normal drone bombardment units (except for the part where it is 6 points of drone bombardment) - this would require EPs to do this, which he could arrange to have, thereby not spending 12EP on an LAD in favor of other things (he didn't use most of his construction capability).
Looks like 411 will be close....
…. might get down to a single pip or two on the dice!
Last round of dice went in my favour. I did 27 pts to his 18 (outrolled him 4 to 2 and the -1 knocked him down to a 1).
However it's not enough, he has 6 uncrippled ships that can absorb average 8 pts each plus 20 to 22 ftrs (I lost count). That is 70 pts he can absorb, then if he gets desperate he could absorb 8 more on two FCR's and finally self kill some HN. I have 18 pts worth of uncrippled ships, 10 ftrs and 5 SIDS steps, so I can only lose 4 SIDS to keep the SB alive. That gets me to 46 pts. So even getting a good die roll and doing 50% more damage isn't enough. Self killing for me is less useful, if he self kills a ship he can replace it with another cripple and keep his compot up, if I self kill I have no spare ships and my compot drops.
So I killed a crippled LM with my damage, he has to take 17 more. I gave up 3 SIDS to cripple the SB and killed fighters to absorb my damage. So theoretically I can stick around another round and absorb 15 free damage, depends on how he takes his damage. We are amusingly approaching the point where I don't need to run behind a crippled SB, because he may not be able to field 6 good ships to actually chase me, and he may want to retreat to get within retrograde range of the homeworld.
Regarding the other conversation of the LAD as a build choice for the Kzinti homeworld defence. I'll throw in my 2 cents, not to pick on the choice, but to offer an alternative. I think the choice of the LAD can make sense if the additional slow unit means an Aux (either LAV or LAD) end up getting away when the inevitable slow unit pursuit happens. We won't know that die roll for a week or 2 based on current pace.
But for the 12 pts he spent on it, I'm not sure it was the best way to keep the kzin homeworlds safe on T4. I would think that would have been to spend 2 EP on 5 rounds of drone bombardment from a DF (although that is 2 less compot than a LAD), then he could have spent 4 EP fixing 2 crippled BC's that didn't get fixed and 5 EP building 2 FFs and the last EP converting a CM to a MEC. The extra damage absorption from 2 more BC and 2 more FF would have done more to protect the shipyards T4 then I think the LAD will, and the FF's are additional pin count for the rest of game. Converting a MEC gives him 2 more compot over the CLE's that he is still fielding, which could balance the LAD compot advantage over a DF.
But as Ted said, the choice is made, and we are just discussing what ifs and alternatives for future games.
Well a SAV costs 8 and a LAV costs 16 and neither count against carrier production because they are an AUX. See (513.112). That gives you an extra ship equivalent or 2 in fighters to transfer and take damage on for free. In the case of the SAV add in 2xFF and that's 3 ship equivalents 18 points of damage that could be absorbed for the same 13 EPs of the LAD. I do see the advantage of the LAD, because it is 15 to cripple and 21 to kill by itself if used in the Drone Bombardment mode.
Thanks for giving me ideas for the Kzintis in the Empires of the Dead game too.
In retrospect, Operation Lyran Spank may be costing the Hydrans too much. The Hydrans just can't afford to take much damage early in the game. Hydran casualties for the whole operation are:
KIA: TG+FSP, LM, DG, 2*RN, 2*KN, 2*CU (10 SEQ plus change)
WIA: LB, RN, 4*DG, 3*LN, 3*HN, KN, LN, CR, PGS, LNG, HNG
Coalition losses are:
KIA: D7A, D6M, CA, FHL, SC, SB (411), 2*BATS (212 and 413), 4*PDU, and MB (stuck on EB SB). 4 SEQ in ships. Plus Skagmark (Lyran major planet in 509) is captured, so even with a hospital ship it's going to cost the Lyrans, like 15 EPs or so in lost revenue.
WIA: CC, 3*CA, CW, 2*CL, 5*DD, FF, DDG.
Economically speaking, the operation was a success. Total damage done to the Lyrans was 224.5 EPs (give or take depending on how fast Skagmark recovers). Total *actual* effect on EPs will depend on whether the Lyrans replace the BATS and SB fully. Total damage done to the Hydrans was 101.5 EPs, which is isn't dependent on replacing "free" bases. At better than 2:1, that's good. However, not including the bases, the economic hit was closer to even and maybe even favor the Lyrans a bit.
IN ADDITION, many of my best cruisers are now crippled and not available for defense when the Klingons cross the border on C4. Also, the loss of 9 SEQ (and net loss of 6 SEQ relative to the Coalition) is serious given the smaller size of the Hydran navy. 2nd fleet will also be out of position on C4, though thankfully I did manage to open a retrograde path for it so the bulk of 2nd fleet will make it back home to BATS 515. Also, paying to repair the cruisers (and I will need them) is going to be expensive, and the Hydrans simply will have to give up either PDU or ship construction.
ON THE OTHER HAND, the Lyrans now have no bases in Southern Lyran space - and long experience tells me that replacing Red Claw SB is expensive enough that it might not happen in view of the other needs the Lyrans have for those EPs. At least temporarily, that will make it more difficult to conduct operations in the hinterlands of Lyran territory. So, strategic plus.
It remains to be seen whether my aggressive strategies will be wise in this game.
Anyway, I can say this. The game is more exciting with highly aggressive Alliance play. Plus, it sure was fun to take the Lyrans out to the woodshed and stir up the hornet's nest!
i dunno what klingons are parked on your border but it seems like a pretty good spoiling attack. you turtle up, you end up selling your cruisers for what? a coalition cruiser and 6 EPs in coalition repairs each? the initiative is hard to quantify but definitely not worthless, and you've definitely taken a bite out of it.
now, knowing when the jig is up is a lot harder when the game gets all messy like it is. but that's a good kind of problem to have, really.
possibly hitting the major was a problem? i know it was a lot of the appeal of the operation (and certainly a propaganda coup!) but in lieu of 15 coalition EPs over time you could have saved the four self-kills, and maybe gotten a significantly better result at the BATS?
mission creep kills.
Chris, that's exactly my point. In retrospect, I should have devoted fewer forces to Skagmark and more to EB SB. That would have dramatically lowered my damage taken simply because I would have had the reserves to take the beating while still dishing out more damage. Would have saved me 2-3 battle rounds over 411.
Note that 411 was where most of my damage was taken. At Skagmark all I lost was a crippled KN and CU (and the need to refill 22 of the fighters on the FCP for 4.4 EP). At BATS 413 I lost the TG+FSP and a RN. The rest of my losses (but for a crippled CR at 513) were over 411.
Hindsight is 20/20. I *was* consistently outrolled at 411 (at least by a little).
i thought you were saying "maybe i should have just dug in". even stretching for the planet your attack seems to me to have been worthwhile.
a nice thing about a game with so many pieces is that a perfectly played turn isn't even a reasonable aspiration. kind of liberating, really.
I was going to say the same as Chris. It's not a Bridge to Far as they succeeded in every objective. However, I think for the EP Ted has cost me from occupying the Major, he spent more at the SB. If the rest of the 2nd fleet had just piled on the EB SB it would have went down for either a few direct destroyed CA's or a lot less cripples. One, he would have had the FCP and two during the last 4 rounds he had cripples on the line which wouldn't have happened with 8 more ships. So my SB would have dropped quicker.
I don't think BATS 0413 could have got much better for him. If the dice had worked for me on the stasis attempt and I had frozen the Fire Support Tug he wouldn't have been able to kill the stasis cruiser and cripple the BATS in the first round. So a fourth round of shooting would have led to another dead CA. More or different Hydrans wouldn't have helped this fight.
Overall in the long term the Hydrans have a good strategic outcome from this. The Lyrans have no supply points or ability to interdict his homeworld to off map travel, not without taking a few turns and going to a lot of trouble.
This turn the Klingons aren't well placed to cause a lot of pain on T4. There are some new ships on the border but the SR and home fleet can really only hit border BATS. The Hydrans have so many cripples and have no reserves to speak of they are going to challenged to offer a good defense over all of four SB. I expect to get one Hydran SB fairly cheaply next turn. It will be interesting to see where/how he retrogrades his fleet that hit 0413 to and which SB he values keeping most.
Having said that, at the end of Turn 3 the dead SB count is 1 each.
Overall though, I don't feel uncomfortable from the loss of Lyran infrastructure. I'm in the driver seat in Kzin space, and I believe I said at the start that I was only going to work to suppress the hydrans so that I could concentrate on the Feds hard on T7. The Hydran cripple backlog is going to impact his cash next turn and the key will be getting Klingon ships in position to devastate Hydran planets and cut it down some more.
What Dana said.
Skagmark is gravy. I got greedy and then overestimated my forces needed there and underestimated my forces needed at 411.
But, overall, I still accomplished significant strategic objectives. We'll see in the long run if it was worth it.
As an interesting aside, Dana, be sure to read up on the hospital ship rules. You'll actually get to use it on a planet!
Losing 2 strat move will suck a bit for the Lyrans.