Archive through November 30, 2018
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Strategy Discussions:
Archive through November 30, 2018
One thing that came up with the Feds going to limited war is that the Klingons and Romulans, and possibly the Lyrans lose that number of turns of Diplomatic income. Unlike WYN trade those EPs are lost for all time.
Adding a bit more:
So long as the Zin must defend their capital, they are constrained to 1401. This fact limits their options. However, *after* you take 1401 that 7-hex long "offmap" area becomes an enormous pain in your side. They can send their fleet west and threaten Lyran space, east to support the Feds, or drive straight through - and retreat offmap after you have adjusted to their moves. However, doing so is more difficult because you don't know which direction they will go given the very long offmap edge.
IMHO there's only two reasons to take the Zin capital, both of which may apply: to go for a 3 capital knock-out or to reduce their production severely for 6 turns. However, even a 3 capital knockout takes 18-25 turns, and while you are doing that the unfettered kitties make a lot of hay.
Anyway, I'm not saying these are reasons not to go Zin first at all, but it does give me pause to go after them *first* - it's that much more time where you will have more difficulty containing them while the Hydrans are building up.
In view of the Hydran menace and the Zin freedom once they lose their capital, I have yet to see a convincing argument for Zin first (i.e., enough to convince *me* - plenty of smart people here like Zin first, and they could be better at the game than I am).
Anyone care to take me up on that? (i.e., try to convince me that Zin first actually is potentially superior to Hydran first?) Don't worry, I actually am reasonable! 
Can't argue much with what Mr. Fay comments just above this.
Oh, and just to be plain, my preference doesn't mean I'm married to Hydran first. If the opponent thinks that I'm so married to Hydran first that I won't throw myself at Kzintai, he will be in for a rude surprise. Failing to shore up Kzinti with significant PDUs and/or other defenses is an open invitation to my Kligons and Lyrans to come in for "shore leave" on the beaches of the Kzinti capital...
The Barony. Thorn in my side is certainly an accurate descriptor.
The issue with the breadth of action the Kzinti can take offensively from the comfort of the barony is the main reason I fortify 1001 as the coalition, even if I am orchestrating most of my fleet action in the theater through the Klingon front. Simply to prevent shenanigans in Lyran space from the Barony. Unless the Kzinti want to pay the price it takes to bring 1001 down, the only other realistic target they have is 1401, which typically keeps their focus. This then reduces them to a situation similar to the Hydrans, where they are mainly focused on retaking the capital, rather than mucking about in coalition territory. They probably get the most bang for their buck heading east into fed territory, of the options given.
My question is, who does it hurt worse to lose their capital? I would argue the Kzinti. The Hydrans are set up for the fall of their capital to be an eventuality, every Hydran player accepts it. But the Hydran production schedule isn't very robust, and their economy is even weaker. I'm quite content to let the main Hydran fleet sit in a devastated capital, trying to smuggle or blockade run in DPs from the old colonies just so they can build more than one hull per turn. Any funny stuff, and keeping those spare maulers in Hydran space make those new builds vaporize fairly quickly.
The Kzinti, on the other hand, lose a considerable chunk of their economy with the loss of 1401, as well as the shipyard production. They are then spending most of their income on building a new shipyard, while in the meantime any builds they can pull off are based around trying not to lose their free fighter factors. If I knock out 1401 by, say, turn 6, fed entry into the war doesn't make as much difference because they still can't ramp up production until turn 12, despite the economic aid. That's not a consideration for the Hydrans, who can't count on aid from anyone (tiny violins.)
That's as well as I can state my preference for Kzinti first. Its not so much that Kzintai *has* to go down chronologically sooner than Hydrax, just that the timing I feel is more important for when it falls, considering economy and the loss of potential as well as real hulls. As a result, I generally commit more resources to that theatre.
In terms of choosing to take the Kzinti capital or not (rather than just them first), it is definitely take it.
e.g. the difference between taking the kzinti capital on C7 as opposed to magically just having all the capital planets except Kzintai devastated for the rest of the game is something like 426 ep and 102.4 xtp lost for the Kzinti, and an extra 240 ep + 140.8 xtp for the coalition. Which if you assume 5 EP = 1 SE (given you can at least use 5 ep to overbuild a FF), that means taking the capital is a net advantage of 181 odd SE by the game end (6 of which are fighter squadrons permanently lost). Given you'd lose 50-60 SE taking the capital, that is a very good deal.
It does not even matter much the Coalition is spending the SE early to gain SE later - the higher value of early SE is offset by the significant advantage they have in the first place. Never having to pin/fight those SE instead of destroying them later is an advantage in of itself. Plus you essentially break even after the 6 turn shipyard rebuild anyways.
Yes that means more flexible options for the Kzinti fleet to be annoying, but that is rather unlikely to make up for the much smaller fleet they will have to be annoying with as the game winds down. One way to minimise their options is to build a SB on one of the planets (I usually do 1202, as the bulk garrison fleet on 1401 can just react there if ever needed, and vice versa) The other is to force the Hydrans off map. Once that is done (which may take a while if the Hydrans are willing to expend their fleet), then you don't need any reserves down there. 4-5 reserves in Kzinti space complicate their options a fair bit.
In terms of which first, it likely matters more which one works better for you personally. Which feeds better into your play style (and/or worse for your opponents) would matter more than the marginal differences. Still, you get three turns already to work on the Kzinti before you can even attack the Hydrans. It is somewhat easier as a result to just finish them first. Plus their capital is worth more, so there is some value in that alone.
I personally like the Kzinti first simply to minimise Federation support possibilities. They can theoretically link up/send EP, whereas the Hydrans just fight alone, with nowhere near the EP's they need to be a real threat. Plus the excess forces garrisoning the eastern end of the Kzinti can then pour into the northwestern Federation when you attack them. Including forces that will need to retrograde to 1802.
Tim.
Maybe ADB should consider having you guys come up with a strategy guide for F&E. There are so few people who truly have a lot of experience playing it, and I think almost all of you are here. It's a large and complicated game, but a really amazing game if you take the time to understand it. A strategy guide for it would be very interesting even too people who don't play the game, and might be a thing that serves to draw more people into playing it.
It really is a very small group of you who really have experience actually playing F&E, your knowledge of HOW to play F&E would be a great thing for the game.
A very good suggestion.
A small (sorta) scenario that will introduce you to many rules you don't see early in the general war is the Romulan Civil War. Even has some ISC in it.
It is in one of the later Captain's Log, it's kind of insane.
what would be even better is from year zero F&E with all the tech upgrades coming along etc etc would be great fun to see the rise of the Klingon empire or something similar with others making the historic decisions (like a bigger hydran kingdom :P, or the gorns taking the romulans out before they got smarba etc etc.), possibilities are endless.
Jim, then try the EB game. It's 4X for F&E! You can find the rules and cyberboard setup on the BBS, I think.
If you go Kzinti first you may well cost them a lot of lost income, but the cost of taking a fully upgraded Hydran capital is just simply obscene.
Its also a lot easier to hold the Hydran Capital in the long run.
my preferred route to conquering the hydrans is to cut off the old colonies and starbase off the offmap area 1st then you can kill the 'rump' at your leisure.
ted, 4x rules for F&E (huge grin of greatness). one day, when real life isn't kicking my bum so much, then, maybe, i'll be able to get back to this hobby/obsession of our's. thanks for the info though, nice to know its there.
Taking a 20 PDU Hydran capital on C10 should in general cost you 60-70 odd ships. Even doing it later for a capital not worth as much, it is still likely going to be in the 120 SE value range compared to the Kzinti calculation above.
The coalition should have more than enough ships to afford doing this. Even after losing 50-60 doing the same to the Kzinti on C6/C7. Especially if you are using minor shipyards.
The main trick is to cut off the Hydran fleet's supply so they cannot replenish all their fighters until the end of A11 after retreating from the capital.
You won't have an overwhelming attack on the Federation for C10 as a result, but you should still have enough of a superiority in SE overall in the Federation to prevent too much problems as a result. And then you have a few turns where only the Federation is essentially doing much of anything - and all your builds can go there. Plus the Federation fleet quality is rather poor overall, until much later.
Tim.
Ted, What is that EB game that is 4X for F&E. It sounds interesting.
Dennis
I also prefer splitting Hydran space in half before focusing on Hydrax, rather than just overwhelming them. Do we have a name for that strategy?
Also, if you're working on one or the other Zin/Hydran capital why wouldn't you continue to raid the other to destroy PDUs? It makes sense to me to keep the pressure up so they specifically *don't* have 20 PDUs when I'm ready finally to pull the trigger. Note that I find this is somewhat easier to do at Hydrax, simply because the capital system is smaller than Kzinti and the Hydrans haven't had as much time to bulk up defenses.
Dennis, "EB" stands for "Early Beginnings". It's a home-brew 4X style game for use with F&E rules.
It's been around for a very long time - at least 2005 I think. I'm not sure exactly where to find the latest stuff for it, though if you search the F&E topic with a keyword search from the utilities on the left of your screen on the Discuss site you are using now you should be able to find it.
Jimi Laform did this? Not sure. I'm sure someone will pipe in here and get you what you want.
-T
It is Tim Losberg's baby. Look up him as a member in this board. His email is in there.
Question for the Hydran gurus.
(525.316-D) says the Hydrans may, but are not required to, use "free fighter factors" to reduce the cost of the IC. (511.33) clearly states that free fighter factors are not received when rebuilding a capital shipyard.
How do you build this monster when the above 2 rules make it virtually impossible to build it on a given turn. You won't have any free fighter factors left over from the turn before you lost your capital to carry over. You have to try and build as many ships as possible between the OCS, MSYs and SB frigate production as possible to help the Feds and Kzintis in the turns before you can even think about building the IC. 5 EPs a turn from the Hydran Treasury Bonus (442.4) is unlikely to give you enough EPs to complete it.
So what am I missing?
FFFs aren't lost until the turn after 1 year. I.e., get 6*IFF in Fall 168; they are actually lost in Spring of Y170.
Depending on when the capital falls, you might be able to have some stored FFFs to build the IC.
It is very unlikely that you will have them though as you try to build every ship equivalent you can before you lose your capital.
True. Unless, of course, you intentionally hold some FFF back in anticipation of building the IC. All I'm saying is that it's *possible*, even if you're more likely to DO something else.
One trick I like to use when I want to build the IC is to distract my opponent and then swap my economic form with the Klingon's. WooHoo, instant 150+ income!!!
Usually I just see the Hydran player say "F"-it and borrow to the hilt using ADS and then pay it off later...
Thomas
You have missed the Old Shipyard (511.321) produces 3 Free Fighters per turn for Hybrid Ships, but I believe it was ruled the IC is permitted to use these free fighters - as building the IC stops any other hull being built in the Old Shipyard that turn.