Yeah, we need to finish moves in the Hydran theatre today tomorrow and then I'm probably going to start combat down in that area. Just to see how many cripples I take and whether I'll need to move a newly built FRD over that direction. Once I know the answer to that question then we'll run the first 4 or 5 rounds of combat over the kzin capital, then I'll have a brief pause to evaluate the damage I've taken to my capital ships and consider whether I stay to the finish or leave and come back T5 to finish the SB.

But I have enough force in the area now that whether it is this turn or next it's more a matter of willingness to accept the damage and repair bill on my part. Also, does postponing the capture by 1 turn put me in a better repair situation then the Kzin will gain with another turns income and ability to produce ships.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, December 06, 2018 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Ok, a little late

T4C Econ

Klingon
deficit -9.7 (multiple repair tugs T3C)
begin ADS
borrow 29.5
Income 155.2
Total 175
Repairs 28
Build 128.5 (C8, TGB, D6M, 5xD5, D5V, 2xAD5, LTT, 2xE4(sub F5L), 4xF5, 3xE4, 2xDP, E4A, PRD, B10 roll)
Activate 2 (2xD6)
Conversions 9 (D6M, D5V, D6D)
E&S raid - sabatoge Hydran econ, failed

7.5 balance

Lyran
deficit -15.3 (multiple repair tugs T3C)
begin ADS
borrow 4
Income 119.8
Total 108.5
Repairs 26.5
Build 75.5 (DN, STT, 3xCW, LTT, 3xDW, 3xFF, FRD)
Conversions 6 (CL to BC)
E&S raid - attempt to cripple Kzin home monitor, failed.
Start new colony - 1

Comm convoy arrived
4 EP from Wyncovia rcvd

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, December 06, 2018 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Hydran moves finished a couple days ago.

Lyrans thought about turning the TG at 0411 (site of the destroyed SB) into a supply point, moving an FRD to it and bringing a MB as well. Then I could strike towards the 2nd Flt SB. However after some thinking on the matter I decided that would just be reinforcing failure. I'd be trying to keep a stack of ships protecting it while also protecting the Klingon BATS. So all Lyran ships in 411/412/413 moved to 0515 and 0716, they plan to retreat back within range of 810. So the Hydrans have the only bases over there, but they can't really do much more to hurt me. If I put some pressure on the Hydran homeworlds from 1013 he won't be able to spare many ships to go on adventures.

Klingons hit 6 Hydran BATS from 0515 around to 1219. 5 should fall, there is a fight at the 6th which is 0515, which the Klingon/Lyrans should win. Klingons hit 1st fleet SB, but I miscounted there, after a long fight I retreated with a couple of dead F5's and a lot of cripples. SB has 7 SIDS and 14 pts of ships to repair, it also used 4 pts of RCR during combat.

Long battle at 0716 before the Exp SB went down. Coalition lost D6M, BC, CA, DDG, CW and 24 cripples for 64 repair. No Lyran salvage as they were more than 6 from nearest supply. Hydrans lost 2xRN, 2xTR, and have 5 cripples in addition to using RCR on a BT. I have 3 FRD's I can transfer to BATS 1013 and I should be able to deal with most of the cripples here. Repair bills are going to be high again next turn though. This may be enough to decide me against taking the Kzin capital this turn.

However the Hydrans have about 70 pts of repair right now (not counting SIDS), and that is after using repair tug last turn and RCR at both SB's. They also will have at least 7 ships that can't get repaired on T4A. More if I can win at 515 as there are 3 cripples there that will retreat off repair space.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, December 07, 2018 - 09:52 pm: Edit

>>Activate 2 (2xD6)>>

Why only activate 2 ships? You have 7 in treasury and can activate, IIRC, 7?

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Friday, December 07, 2018 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Wanted to ensure that I had treasury for at least 6 rounds of DB over the capital, and Ted and I aren't consistently directing on each other so I can't rely on salvage.

There are lots of D6's in the mothball fleet so I wanted to make sure I activated them, but you run out of E4's pretty quickly so I figured I could wait a turn for them. I'm not really hurting for pin count right now, but I know I'll need it later.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 01:48 am: Edit

Or you could use deficit spending...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 02:09 am: Edit

He did, borrowed almost the maximum. There are some comments to be made, but I will do it later, perhaps.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 08:11 am: Edit

Ah, ok, fair enough!

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 11:03 am: Edit

Maybe the E&S wasn't the most efficient use for the Klingons, and replacing the drone pods were expensive but I wanted them in the Kzinti capital assault this turn. I'm going to try and keep them alive this turn. The E&S raid for the Lyrans seemed like a good bet to try and cripple the MON. I also really need to make some F5E's soon and more AD5's. Repair this coming turn is going to be huge, I wonder if I'll be able to afford all ships, we aren't using the common you can always sub a FF house rule.

Otherwise, we're 4 rounds into the Kzin capital fight and the dice this turn have went my way. Kzins have rolled 2, 3, 2, 1. Last turn they had a 6 first round with their biggest line but their average over the 6 rounds has been 2.5. I've got a 3, 6, 5, 3 for rolls which has killed all 13 PDU's in the first 4 rounds.

I need to look at things now, I think I may be in good enough shape to stick it out and take the capital this turn. I still have 2 DN's, 2 C8's and the TGA/DP uncrippled, so a decent base to feed battlegroups of D5's and F5's to him until he's had enough. I'll be a few turns fixing the damage but seeing how the kzinti already have a stack of repair of map and has a significant deficit, if he cripples too much he'll have even more troubles paying for it.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 11:33 am: Edit

i think the infinite downsub house rule is endemic to peter's games. which does make it common, of course

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 01:07 pm: Edit

The you can always sub an FF is not a common house rule, it is a standard rule under (450.4) or as listed on most of the current Order of Battles. About the only thing you can't universally sub a FF for is a DW. Those are somewhat dependent on the empire in question.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 01:34 pm: Edit

>>i think the infinite downsub house rule is endemic to peter's games. which does make it common, of course >>

I've seen various games using it; I got it from Richard.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 01:52 pm: Edit

While substituting an FF for a larger ship is a standard rule, the rule does limit this to two ships per turn. The unlimited substitutions is a house rule.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 01:59 pm: Edit

That's how I read it, I subbed the 2xF5L for E4 but stopped there. I'm not ready to give up a C8 or cruiser build yet to save cash. I could have made everything work last round to get all the mothballs activated but I wanted to get some conversions done and some D5V built. Plus the PRD at 1407 will get used.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 02:04 pm: Edit

I got it from misunderstanding the rule in a game with Peter and then it stuck.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, December 11, 2018 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Capital assault continues slowly (Christmas activities and I'm currently traveling for work).

However 4 more rounds of combat have occurred. So far 13 PDU's have been killed and otherwise I have let damage drop the last 4 rounds. Although I have been very tempted to kill a TG/SP and/or Kzinti DN or DNL. Ted killed a D6M on T6 and a C8 on T7. The fight is close enough that I don't want to waste extra damage right now on the attack. Dice got a little better for Ted with a 6 rolled on round 5 and 6, unfortunately those were his two lowest compot forces to date. If he puts out his best line, he seems to get a low number.

Anyways, raw damage. Ted has done, (92, 65, 72, 78, 53, 52, 52, 56) rounds 1 through 8 or 520 damage. I have done (45, 36, 47, 35, 54, 48, 38, 44) or 347 damage.

I have about 36 cripples now, but they are all big ships, a couple CW's but everything else is Cruiser hulls, BC's or DN's. I am really exceeding my repair capacity within range now. However at this point, his compot has dropped enough that I should be able to put forward battlegroups of war cruisers and destroyers and take each turn damage on 6 ships with maybe an extra ship or two. I'm keeping my compot in the 120 range with 10+ EW. I can keep that up for the next 10 to 12 turns. I still have to take my turn 8 damage, waiting to see if he directs. I also have a dozen fighters left in case I get desperate enough to put out some D6V groups.

Kzins have taken a couple SIDS, crippled 2 CVS groups plus 3 cruisers and a couple FF's. Overall 36 repair points which is about his off map repair capacity, and there were already 28 repair points sitting off map waiting for repair. He also has to take his turn 8 damage. Kzin has 75 fighters remaining at end of T7. Which is about 2 rounds at my average damage rate.

There could be many rounds left depending on how many ships he is willing to cripple. I'm ok with seeing this stretch out. I will be able to move ships back to other repair facilities and I have 3 repair phases before T7 and the Fed attack. Might require my not building some ships for a turn or two though. The kzins will have a long road trying to repair their fleet and start shipyards any time soon.

Oh, I've called max BIR each turn, and have increased on T4 and T7. So we're up to a BASE BIR of 7 now with Ted calling a 1. I'm looking to get high percentages and keep my drone bombardment efficient.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 03:02 am: Edit

Ted is very aware that you don't cripple the entire Kzinti fleet over 1401...

As you have pointed out - its annoying to exceed front repair capacity - but Op move moving and Strat Moving ships the following turn to gets a huge amount of additional repair capacity available ((and they then get the free Stat Move to et into position at the end of turn 6).

Outside the Marquis area - there just isn't much more the Kzinti can do (hence getting the FRD's off map can be vital) - and 3 or 4 turns of backlog is just going to kill the Kzinti in being a thorn in the side of the Coalition.

But - never say never and delaying 1401 falling for 1 turn (and being able to reuse all those fighters!) might be worth it

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 07:58 am: Edit

I don't expect him to cripple to the end, but I'm not sure how much more he may cripple. I figure at my average damage rate he has about 4 rounds of free damage absorption on SB, fighters, some slow units. So at his average damage I'll take another 220 to 240 damage. After that fighting any more rounds he is crippling more ships and adding to his backlog. Although he should be doing 20 to 25% more to me so I am crippling more.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 11:54 am: Edit

There's no question in my mind that he *could* take 1401 this turn. There *is* a question if Dana is going to have the stomach for it. I think I found a way to significantly increase the damage he would take to do so, and that in turn will increase the odds he will come back C5 to finish the job. We will see.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Specifically I'm going to direct his remaining capital ships, even if in form. Round 9 I did just this, using 54 damage to kill a C8 in form.

After this round, his current highest uncrippled CR10 flags are DN (Lyran) and TGA+LL (Klingon). His only remaining uncrippled CR9 flags are CA (Lyran) and CVT (Klingon).

After that, he's using crippled flags. Plus, he might not be willing to risk the TGA+LL given how valuable it is. Plus, he only spent a Klingon command point, so if he switches to Lyran flag he's going down at least 1 ship.

Of course, he's still got plenty of CR8 flags and an enormous depth of reserves (20*D5, 9*CW, 16*F5 and a bunch of other stuff). So, if he wants to take 1401 this turn, he can certainly have it. However, the price tag will go way up since his compot will go down substantially in 1-2 more combat rounds.

Unless he wants to put crippled CR10 Lyrans on the line, but again that means losing that many more CR10 Lyrans.

We'll see if he's willing to stomach the increased butcher bill to have Kzintai on C4.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 05:58 pm: Edit

How many Lyran ships are in the theatre at this point to contribute to an assault next round? If the numbers are low they might have to leave early since they won't last many rounds since because they have to put enough of their own ships on the line to satisfy the flagship requirement. And, its all the sooner he would run out of decent hulls and have to put up (lyran) dds and ffs to keep the battle going. If it were me, i'd consider just letting the damage drop once the Klingon capital ships are toast, instead of directing on the Lyran capital ships, however satisfying it may be to blow up DN/BC's every turn. I don't know your fleet compositions at current, but you might consider it.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 06:13 pm: Edit

I think the Coalition player, if using Lyran flag ships, would take damage on D5s over Lyran hulls (and has 20 D5s and 9 CWs), so probably this is not a concern.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 06:18 pm: Edit

i thought the flag had to be one of the highest 3 CR from the majority race? is my obsolescence playing tricks on me?

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Assuming he puts up 5 D5s every turn, that's 4 turns before he takes out the Lyran CWs or the Klingons put up smaller ships (If Ted's blowing up C8s in form in guessing they are doing at least 35 damage per round.) A few more rounds of shooting flagships and he still will have CR 8 ships, or crippled flags, with more of the cannon fodder preserved due to directing to keep grinding on.
Of course, as a Lyran player I am not as concerned about losing CR 10 ships since they produce 2 per turn, as opposed to the Klingons who get 1 per year. Then again Dana might not feel the same way so perhaps Ted knows his opponent and e is is the better tactic.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 06:47 pm: Edit

It's full game, so Lyrans probably produce more than two command 10 ships a turn (as many as four, I think, without that annoying extra SB rule).