I just looked again, in the document I had looked at this morning, it had two SOPs (the second from ISC war) and I was confused; you are correct that it's not there.

My apologies for the confusion.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, November 18, 2018 - 09:53 pm: Edit

No worries! Rules-fu fails everyone at times. :-)

One other place came to mind where escorts configuration in the absence of a normal combat phase becomes an issue. When forming reserve fleets, there needs to be an ability to form / adjust 515.0 groups in order to be able to include newly built or repaired carriers in reserve fleets if there is not some earlier point at which the groups can be defined.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 18, 2018 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Remember, every time someone fails at Rules-fu, the Souldra eat another space-kitten.

...

I don't think that qualifies, you can hold off assigning escorts in the reserve step, as the escort status is only needed when the carrier (or escorts) need protection, which they don't in that step.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, November 18, 2018 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Hmmm, two additional points for escort assignment, production (obvious) and strategic movement/reserves (when brought together from separate areas) …

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 04:48 am: Edit

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From SoP (105.0-M17):
3A2C: Target empire declares which ships will fight the raider (314.251).
3A2D: Raiding ships and reacting units conduct one round of small-scale combat (SSC) (314.244) if permitted. [FEDS NOTE: If NOT permitted, then a single round of normal combat is fought during the raid phase.]

(314.253) If the raider elects to attack a PDU, it would first have to fight a single round of normal combat (no pursuit, lost raiders produce no salvage) against all bases, PDUs, and any monitors assigned to that planet.

(314.25) COMBAT: If there are already two or more enemy ships or equivalents in the Raid Target Hex, then ALL of them may (but are not required to) fight the Raiding Ship (318.7). [FEDS NOTE: Rule (318.7) WAS the now defunct Advanced Small-Scale Combat system; it was wholly replaced by the new (310.0) Small-Scale Combat system; if SSC is NOT permitted, then a single round of normal combat is fought during the raid phase.]

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 09:52 am: Edit

Personal opinion: No record keeping needed. Simply add a "clarifying" rule. If a carrier *can* be escorted by other ships in its hex, it is assumed to be escorted if you are outside of actual combat in that hex. If it becomes important to know which ships are assigned to the carrier outside of the combat phase, then do so at the time the matter comes up.

Practically speaking, this kind of rule means that anything that can be escorted will be until you get the combat phase (so long as you have some escort-eligible ships in the hex, including normal war ships). This way, carriers, etc. are effectively immune to E&S raids so long as there are some escort-qualified ships in the hex.

Simple, elegant, little (or no) record keeping until you get to combat.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 06:34 pm: Edit

I second Ted's motion, or something along the same lines!

By Byron Sinor (Bsinor) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Yeah actually Ted's idea is a lot simpler.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Over in Q+A, Ted wrote:
>>To avoid pursuit, the Lyran self-kill 2 CA for 8+4+8+4 = 24 damage. >>

So for now ignoring that there is probably a less self destructive way to do this (over cripple a few things, have some minus points, use formation bonus, you are unlikely to lose 2CA as a result), I'll get to the point at hand:

>>The Kzinti player, hoping to force a pursuit by forcing the Lyran player to accept a captured (and crippled) Kzinti FF in his forces, points out that 305.11 simply instructs the Lyran player to roll 2 dice and if the result is "2" then the ship is captured. If the FF is captured, then a cripple will be present and pursuit possible.>>

The Lyrans, even if they capture the crippled FF, can just leave it to die in the pursuit. Like, they don't need to have a full pursuit line. I don't have the rulebook handy, but I'm almost 100% certain that you can freely abandon cripples to die in pursuit without being forced to protect them.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Peter,

I was trying to be simple in the example, so don't worry about self-killing 2*CA. I wanted simple numbers and simple examples to focus on the main point. But you probably already knew that. FYI: Sometimes it's not worth the overcrippling - you still have to fight another round and take more damage on pursuit, and in some circumstances it might not be worth it. There are other ways to deal with the problem. A rescue tug could keep the crippled FF off the line.


Anyway, I've read 307.31 (creation of retreating battle force). You add all cripples and then "up to" three uncrippled ships. You *may* add additional uncrippled ships if the flagship's command rating can accommodate them.

The term "up to 3" includes the number zero. The term "may" is permissive.

So, I would support your conclusion that you could retreat and ONLY put the captured FF on the line.

However, the question remains valid and important.

What happens if I *must* roll capture (and I do capture) is that now that crippled FF is destroyed in pursuit and 1) does not generate salvage for anyone and 2) the Kzinti player gets an opportunity to re-capture the crippled FF (indeed, would only take 12 damage per 305.25). However, if I can *decline* the capture roll then there is no opportunity to recapture the FF and the Zin will get salvage for it.

Anyway, the point is, it still matters. This rules question wont' have a serious affect on the game either way, but it does strike me has having at least some effect on play.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 12:42 pm: Edit

"Ensign, we captured a Kzinti frigate. We need you to take it home."

"Yes sir! I knew my punishment for crashing that shuttle had to end at some point."

"Quite right Ensign. Now take command of that ship and bring it home."

"Yes sir, where is my crew?"

"You misunderstand Ensign. We cannot spare a crew. The rest of the fleet has to retreat at full speed. We are counting on you to pilot the ship and take it home. Use your initiative and improvise."

"Sir, I am worried this might be a suicide mission and wish to formally complain."

"That is completely understandable Ensign. You can submit a formal complaint once you get back to the Starbase."

"Can I transmit it to command before I leave for the ship?"

"Afraid not Ensign. These four honor guards with their disruptor rifles pointing at you are here to escort you to the transporter room immediately so you can take command with full honors. Good luck Ensign."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Jon. Thank you for making my case.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 01:12 pm: Edit

>>I was trying to be simple in the example, so don't worry about self-killing 2*CA. I wanted simple numbers and simple examples to focus on the main point.>>

Fair enough.

>>So, I would support your conclusion that you could retreat and ONLY put the captured FF on the line.>>

Like, I'll check the rulebook when I get home, but I'm fairly certain that there is a line in there that specifically says "You can just leave all the cripples to die if you want.", essentially.

>>What happens if I *must* roll capture (and I do capture) is that now that crippled FF is destroyed in pursuit and 1) does not generate salvage for anyone and 2) the Kzinti player gets an opportunity to re-capture the crippled FF (indeed, would only take 12 damage per 305.25). However, if I can *decline* the capture roll then there is no opportunity to recapture the FF and the Zin will get salvage for it.>>

I suspect that when the rule for capturing ships was written, and salvage didn't exist, there was zero reason to ever not automatically roll for capture. Currently, there is a very corner case situation where rolling for capture might be worth opting out of, but I suspect that the rules still assume that you automatically roll for capture, until someone decides to make a rule that says is is is optional.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 01:30 pm: Edit

i cant find it right now, but im pretty sure that if the lyrans self kill multiple hulls in order to avoid one round of combat with a _six ship_ zin line, the lyrans get -1 battle intensity for the rest of the game.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Hmmm... here's another example of abuse of the capture rules (maybe not "abuse", but surely an oddity).

You're losing the battle, will retreat next round. You see the chance to kill a really critical, expensive target before running. You direct, kill the (fill in the blank, be it Klingon Drone Tug, or Lyran DNP, or CVA lacking escorts, or whatever).

Opposing player reminds you to roll for capture.

You capture, and run away with your prize. He pursues, easily scoring enough damage to recapture his lost ship (3x damage), thus avoiding the loss of the ship.

Even if you put the ship in formation, thus requiring 3x damage to kill it, it still is automatically recaptured at 3x damage.

Great way for your opponent to negate your kill of his ship.

*~*~*~*

Just retreating without leaving any healthy ships on the line doesn't solve the problem - they still get to recapture their ship. But maybe there's a provision for scuttling a ship? I capture your DNP and then scuttle it to avoid you recapturing? I might opt for that even if there's still other cripples, just to deny you the recapture. Go ahead and kill my crippled frigates if you want, you ain't getting your DNP back!

By Mike Curtis (Fear) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 02:20 pm: Edit

See ruling inline with the question in Q&A.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Just as a post script, a freshly captured ship can always be scuttled if you don't want to be pursued.

Capturing takes place at phase 5-6X1. All players may then scuttle units they control at step 5-6X10.

So, I guess it really makes no difference to the Kzinti player in my example whether the capture roll is mandatory or no.

In view of FEAR's ruling, probably the best way to put it is this:

"While I can't decline to roll for capture, I can always subsequently scuttle the captured Kzinti FF at step 5-6X10 of the troop interface on the sequence of play. So, let's not bother with the actual rolling of the dice, shall we?"

:P

-T

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Kevin wrote:
>>Even if you put the ship in formation, thus requiring 3x damage to kill it, it still is automatically recaptured at 3x damage. >>

Where is this rule? I'm unfamiliar with it, and it isn't the F+E2K10 capturing ship rules (not that it doesn't exist; I just have never seen a "recapture ship for 3x damage in pursuit" or something rule anywhere).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>"While I can't decline to roll for capture, I can always subsequently scuttle the captured Kzinti FF at step 5-6X10 of the troop interface on the sequence of play. So, let's not bother with the actual rolling of the dice, shall we?">>

That is certainly a way to make it go, I suppose.

This all being said, I think the number of instances where you don't want to roll for capture (or want to circumvent it) is pretty minimal.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Peter wrote:
>>"Where is this rule? I'm unfamiliar with it, and it isn't the F+E2K10 capturing ship rules (not that it doesn't exist; I just have never seen a "recapture ship for 3x damage in pursuit" or something rule anywhere).">>

Hmmm... Interesting. I found the rule, but re-reading it brings questions of its own.

Rule 305.25 - Option 5 - (A captured ship) can be included in the Battle Force at its current factor and be treated as any other unit of the capturing player, except for one exception: The original owner could recapture the it by expending Damage Points equal to three times the original uncrippled defense factor, even if it has the formation bonus.

Two questions:

First question is to myself: Did I miss the phrasing of this all these years: three times the original uncrippled defense factor! Or was it phrased differently in the 1986 version? Additional question: Where is my '86 rulebook?? I just tore apart my game room looking for it!!

So my concerns about the 3x damage was either corrected already, or was based on my faulty reading of the rules in the first place. Sure, I can capture your DN, and in pursuit, you can recapture it automatically... if you score a full 54 points of damage in pursuit!!!

Second question, maybe to be posted as an official question: Does rule 305.25 apply when setting up a pursuit battle? The rule was written for using captured ships directly in combat, but a pursuit battle is direct combat in a rearwardly direction. I would think the rule applies as normal.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 07:30 pm: Edit

12 x 3 is 36, not 54. It says to use the uncrippled defense factor.

The rules don't say anything about rearward, they say what they say. I really dont think the powers that be will say it works differently.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 04, 2019 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Huh. That is all very weird.

Full disclosure--I almost never use the captured ship rules, as I almost completely play this game online, and remembering the extra die rolls is a nightmare. So I don't know them that well.

But looking at the "uses of a captured ship" seem to indicate that you have option 1 and option 3 (i.e. "exclude them from combat for some further use") to fall back on if you are forced to allow the ship to get recaptured with option 5.

There is nothing I can see in the captured ships rule that reference pursuit. So I got no idea what happens here.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Hey guys, I'm posting this question here because I'm sure it's an easy one, and I don't want to bother FEAR with easy stuff...

...but I just can't seem to find the answer on my own, so I seem to be defeated by the easy stuff!

Is there a limit on how many DNP and BCP the Lyrans can build in a year?

They count against PFT limits, so that's one built, one converted per turn, but can the Lyrans really build a DNP in the spring, also convert a DNP in the spring, build a BCP in the fall, and convert another DNP in the fall? Four of these giants each and every year?

Thanks in advance!

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 - 10:12 pm: Edit

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By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Q540.22 Is the bonus EP earned under this diplomatic mission affected by the economic status of the receiving emp

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Quote:

(not affected by exhaustion)

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By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, February 12, 2019 - 10:45 pm: Edit

That's my gut feeling as well, but I need a ruling on this before the GM in our free campaign will agree to a spreadsheet formula change to allow for it.