Archive through March 07, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
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Archive through March 07, 2019
It's silly to do that, at least in the early game.
You can keep the Hydrans pinned out (you can even deploy a forward FRD to provide a place to stack your fleet to keep the Hydrans away. You can then use the money for other things.
There are lots of ways to earn VP's for the Coatliion, if your only playing say 6 turns - capturing or full devastating both capital hexes is 'easy'.
Who cares if the Coalition navy s 50% crippled an 25% dead if there is no turn 7?
(The Alliance can counter and do the same - but then it becomes a numbers game...and the Coalition has a lot more ships to cripple and self kill).
I agree 1013 is nice to upgrade - but there are better ways to spend the cash!
Losing the Marquis 'cheaply' is also pretty major thing - in that it will allow the Coalition to cut the on map route off between the Kzinti and Feds - as a SB + 6 ships can be taken down by 18 or less ships. A SB + 20 ships would probably need 40 ships to destroy....
That's 20+ ships available to raid over a wide area 
@Jim: I've played many games and never seen 1013 upgraded to a SB. Interesting idea. What might help more, actually, is to upgrade a *Lyran* MB up to a SB in 1013. Especially in THIS game where I've destroyed all the southern Lyran bases, it would help ensure a supply path to 617. Make a double SB and give the Klingon SB a couple of SFGs and a FCM, then you will have a tough nut to crack indeed.
But, as noted by the others, that's expensive. YMMV.
@ Richard: That's usually the way I see it done.
@ Paul: Agree with everything you said. If you play to victory conditions, it depends on how long term you are. If *all* you play is T1-6, then you play VERY differently (both sides) and losses will be much heavier on both sides. If you're playing the long game (and most people do) then I'm not sure how useful it is to evaluate VPs for T1-6.
As for the loss of the Marquis SB - yeah, that's pretty bad. It's a blunder on my part. I don't think it cost me the game, but it's not good either.
It's better to build a SB at 0416 instead of 0413 even though it costs more - assuming you want a SB at all.
Well if your the Alliance....the Lyrans should build SB's in 101, 102, 103... 
As with anything - the ideal placement of new SB's will depend on whats going on.
1013 is probably the ideal position though as it's within 6 hexes of a probable Lyran supply point - if the Hydrans have done well, 416 might not be - and so you would need to use a MB somewhere to get 416 in a supply gird.
416 also will take perhaps longer to get up (as 1013 can be started on turn 2 or turn 3 as a MB)and is a lot riskier - as you probably will not be able to pin the Hydrans out of both 416 and 617.
Each to their own though
I would agree that it depends on the game. I've been using (Richard's) trick of setting up a Klingon MB or supply tug in Lyran space to facilitate fleet action in western Hydran territory, and that completely changesthe dynamic in that theatre. The Hydran player isn't going to try to bust Klingon bases if it leaves their flank exposed. On the other hand, going traditional all-in through the Klingon border I could see a SB at 1013 being nice for repair and conversion capacity. The Klingons could convert it in one turn from the starting BATS, but then that would put a gigantic bulls-eye right over the hex for the Hydrans. Considering the Klingons could barely afford the upgrade to begin with, losing the base/tug during an intervening plate turn and losing the EPs with it would be gutting for the coalition.
Of course the Lyrans have the cash but their base wouldn't be up and running until what, turn 7? At which point do you still need it for the assault on 617?
IMHO SBs in the Hydran theater depend on your strategy. If you are going Hydran first, then I wouldn't bother with SBs except in 617 itself in order to maximize the chances of holding that capital at game end. A double SB over Hydrax (Lyran, Klingon) also provides 32 repair capacity (so no FRDs needed in the region) and conversion facilities as needed.
If you're going Zin first.... *maybe* you need one. Honestly I would probably put a Klingon SB in 1013 to support raids on the capital, 416, and 718. I might also put a Lyran SB there to make it extremely punishing for any Hydran raid, and also to provide 32 repair capacity and conversion capacity for either Klingon or Lyran units.
However, however, if you are a Zin first strategist I think you're better off using supply tugs. They're next to impossible to kill if you accept an approach battle and then run - all you have to give up is a hex. Use those EPs to build more ships, SEQ that can contain the Hydran menace.
YMMV.
No new SB at 1013, not yet anyways. The Klingons did build a SB at 1009 but that was only to capitalize on a faster Com. Convoy turnaround. Otherwise the Klingons current debt is too big for me to think about building a SB.
Not much chance of building a Lyran SB at 0416 anytime soon. There is no reasonable way that I could pin the Hydrans out of there during construction and also keep them from 1013.
I am behind on posting econ for T7C, I'll do so tonight to catch up.
Movement has finished and battles have started. Klingons have hit every border BATS from 2101 to 2615 except 2213, just ran out of ships in the area. I also did not hit the two Neutral Zone planets which thanks to Fed diplomats are Fed controlled. I could have but would have needed to use more new build ships than I wanted and as it is Klingon reserves at end of turn will be weak.
Additionally planets 2106 and 2306 have been captured and 2403 which had a force of 2 C5 and 3 FD7 show up farther in the Fed rear. Planet 2715 should also be captured.
SB 2204 and 2915 should die unless I get a run of bad luck, I didn't send a lot extra to them. SB 2211 just got pinned.
All targets in the Marquis zone should get captured and a few Kzin ships will end up out of supply.
In Hydran space SB 0215 and the homeworlds got pinned to keep the reserves from moving. BATS 318 and planet 419 should be killed/captured. Probably won't be a big fight at the Hydran homeworlds but I will likely devastate at least 1 major to knock a little more income off.
T7C Econ
Klingons
Previous Bal T6 - 44
Starting Debt - 46
Income - 182
Repay Debt - 14
Repair - 47
Builds - 135.5 (D7C, TGA, D6M, 6xD5, LTT, MD5, D5S, 2xE4(sub F5L), 6xF5, F5G, E4R, B10 roll, 2xbattle pod, FRD
Conv (some during rep) - 14 (D7C, F5E, F5G, D7A, D6S, 2xD6D)
Espionage - 2 (failed raid)
Lyrans
Prev balance - 7
Debt -25
Income - 134
Repay debt - 13
Repair - 28.5
Const - 70 (BC, CA, 2xCW, LTT, STJ, DW, DWE, DWG, 3xFF, FCR) - new minor (FF) shipyard active
Conv - 14 - (DN, CVL(during repair), CWE)
Espionage - 2 (failed)
Roms (spent some saved diplomat money)
Conversions (WE->KE, SP->FHC, SP->SPC)
Nasty fight finishing up at SB 2204.
After 6 rounds current dead.
Fed - DN, DD, SC, 2xFF, SAV, FHL
Kli - 2xD6M, D7A, D5
SB has 11 SIDS on it right now. No one is retreating yet, but we're both down to crippled ships filling out the line. Last round my battle group was crippled d5's and f5's while I took damage on my last D7, D5S and D5V group that only had 1 fighter. I've got 3 SIDS steps from the D6G and it's still alive and rolling.
At this point if I cripple every ship left in the hex and don't self kill anything I can absorb 76 pts of damage(C8, TG/VP2(0 ftr), TG/Tpods, D6G, 2xD6D, D6S, E4R, D5V(1 ftr), F5E). If he cripples every ship he has left, kills his last few fighters and takes his SIDS he can absorb 69 pts of damage (includes self killing the PTR). (CFF, CF, TG/VP+SP, CA, CC, DNL, PTR, SIDS, 12 ftr).
Whether I retreat or stay and win, I get to retrograde all of my ships to an FRD stack. If he retreats he goes towards his border bats (because planet 2403 is gone) and has a crippled and out of supply fleet with no rescue within 7 hexes. Anyways, I'm happy to keep fighting and crippling ships, the whole 4th fleet is going to be wrecked.
Dana, I'm surprised you had the Klingon ship count to legitimately challenge the 4th and 7th SBs. Was this mostly the repairs from the ZTO? And what's attacking 2915? The TBS? I have not found it to be enough to take on the 7th SB without augmenting with new construction, so I'd be interested to see how that played out. I assume it was the East fleet that pinned out 2211. Anyway, you're certainly keeping holy the Zin first strategy in ploughing through the Marquis zone and NW fed space. At this rate, the Klingons will be leading the offensive against the Gorn in a few years...
Well, the TBS was rebuilt with repaired vets fresh from the Kzin capital. The ships attacking 2915 are 2 D7C, TGA/BP, 2 D6M, 3 D7, 4 D5, D6G, 4 F5, D7V group, E4R and D6S. But the nearby BATS and planet attacks are weaker forces. But the great thing about the T7 attack is you can count the Fed ships and know he isn't getting reinforcements.
A lot of the border BATS are being attacked by forces that are a little sub optimal. I'm going to end up taking some extra cripples as it will take me more rounds to win the fight. Some might be close enough that with good die rolls and if he is willing to RCR the defending FF he might even save a BATS or two.
Definitely not following the advice in the good old Weight the Attack tac notes from years ago. Also the 3rd fleet SB is being pinned by 10 good ships and 30 that are along for the pin count, including some D5H's that don't need to move their FRDs this turn.
It really helped that I also didn't need to stage a major attack on the Marquis SB, but there are 30 lyran ships in Kzinti space that didn't move as a result and are waiting to be designated Resv groups including 5 DNs or so.
I'm going to have to watch out for the 70 Kzinti ships that can attack out of the off map area on his half of T7.
The PTR might not be able to absorb damage voluntarily, I can't remember the exact rule.
539.224 cannot be given up voluntarily to resolve damage unless they are the last remaining ship in the battle force. Not the the PTR is going to absorb much anyway.
Didn't end up happening where the PTR came into play. I was just counting up all possibilities if we each fought to the end.
7th round dice went my way, variable went down, I got a 6 and Feds got a 1. Overall Ted slightly outrolled me over 7 rounds but that last round roll was good. I killed a crippled CC and he killed a crippled D5 then he gave up some fighters and retreated with the SB at 1 SIDS remaining .
Combat is progressing. Three SB are now destroyed. Marquis, 4th and the 7th. The Feds lost a CC at the 7th but took no cripples and killed a D6M and a D7 and crippled 3 ships. The 3rd SB had one round of approach fought and then the Klingons left with a dead D7 for a Fed NCL. Looks like all of the BATS that were attacked are going to be destroyed.
About 5 BATS left to kill in Fed/Kzin space then we'll finish up with the Hydran fights. Most likely SB 0215 is just being pinned and will live another round. But the Hydrans will be short of cash next turn. All on map planets should be captured, they will get very little from provinces, off map area should be cut off unless a weird retreat happens and at least 4 of the capital planets will be devastated, not sure if I'll fight hard enough to get the last major other than Hydrax itself.
T7C is complete.
Losses,
Klingon D7A, 2xD7, 3xD6M, D6S, 2xD5, F5, E4A
Lyran CL
Fed DN, 2xCC, NCL, DD, 4xFF, 2xPOL, MON, SAV, FHL, 2xSB, 9xBATS, major captured, 3 minor captured
Kzin DF, SB, 3xBATS, Minor captured
Hydran HR, BATS, MON, Minor captured, capital major devastated
Lyrans made use of a repair tug to fix some ships that couldn't reach repair and were useful forward deployed at 1202 for the Kzin turn. Klingons did the same with a few ships at 1502 and also at the Hydran Planet 0416. Klingons have approximately 100 pts of crip repair pts at 1807 and 7 FRDs there. So some ships will remain unrepaired next turn.
Two very strong Lyran reserves are in Kzin space at 1202 and 1502 with multiple cap ships in each reserve. Klingons have a moderate reserve at 1807 and 3 weak reserves spread out on BATS 1813, 2014 and 2215. The Fed 4th fleet is half crippled and out of supply at 2104 with moderate Klingon ships around it. While part of it will get pinned trying to get out I think it should get to a spot that the Fed home fleet can join a battle and open supply. I'll probably get to kill a couple ships but it should escape. The Fed 3rd fleet is blocked from moving NW as there is a Klingon fleet of 30 SE at 2111. But I would guess Ted could find a way to cause damage to Klingon border BATS and planets if he heads south. The reasoning behind the 3 small resv groups that are spread out is I don't think he can pin them all and still have ships left over to kill much else.
I have one Lyran resv in Hydran space based at 0312 but it is mostly covering the MB being setup there. Otherwise there are 100 SE at 1013 and I think the most Hydran ships he could attack there with is about 95 after new builds. However with no other reserves in theatre I expect the Hydrans will kill at least 5 or 6 little klingons holding his territory. I have a reasonable force of 30 SE or so at planet 0416 and the Lyran reserve can reach that so if he goes there we could have a decent fight.
The Hydrans are cut off from the off map and I think will only have map based income of 15 at the homeworlds although they should get some guild money this turn. The Kzintis have no on map income remaining although they do have about 70 SE after repairs that can strike out of the off map area.
Overall, I thought it was a pretty good T7, I'm a little weak in the middle facing the Feds but have severed any hope of an on map link between the Feds and Kzinti in the north. The Hydrans are about as reduced as I intend to make them, now they are just a festering sore that E4 captains get relegated to so that I can keep up the pin count and not let them out anywhere important. The Kzintis can be annoying for the next few turns but with limited cash and no shipyards every round we fight is an escort frigate I kill and he can only build 1 new ship a turn.
Yeah, that's a downright terrific turn. I am looking back at my game with Paul, in which he also went Kzinti first. On turn 7, the Feds lost 3 SB, 6 BATS, and one minor planet captured, and of course Orion seceded. The Kzinti lost one BATS.
Yes, Orion seceded as well. I never mentioned that.
Meh. As someone who is ordinarily a Coalition player, I find that turns 5-11 are where you get your cocaine high and you're pretty much rolling over the Alliance. Then when the Gorns enter you start encountering more resistance, as holding that much territory is difficult and the bleed rate of pickets starts to take a toll.
Around turns 20-25 are the critical turns. If you have not had very good success by then you are probably going to lose, or at best draw a stalemate.
Normally I'm not an Alliance player, and I will admit my Alliance play has been less than stellar. I mean, I haven't *bungled*, but I wouldn't call my play masterful either. So, we'll see what happens... =)
Ted I have never made it past turn 21. If the Alliance is holding steady on at that point, with roughly equal EPs each turn to the Coalition, do they tend to make gains later?
William, yes. However, to be honest, I have not made it past turn 24 (and that time was me achieving Coalition victory by 3 capital knock-out (Federation, Hydran, Kzinit)).
That being said, I have *observed* other games where that is precisely what happens. Once the Alliance achieves parity there is a slow pushback where the Federation Juggernaught usually chokes (and sometimes kills) the Romulans while they hold the Klingons at bay. I've seen one major Alliance victory that way, but I have to admit that the player (and I don't remember who it was) had the guts, stamina, and fortitude to play it out to the bitter end despite having pretty much all Romulan territory conquered and the Klingons themselves on the ropes.
I also have *been* in a game where the Alliance was clearly becoming dominant by A18 - but that was back in 2008 against Rob Padilla when I was newly back into the game and his Alliance pretty much served up my Coalition on a silver platter. I forget why it ended, but I think I remember being a ***** and pretty much crying uncle.
What I want to do - if I can - is get some more outright completed games under my belt. I'm hoping my current opponents (Bill and Dana and (inactively) Richard) will stick it out till the bitter end. I'm willing to be served up and be owned to make that happen.
Honestly, there's a lot of talk on this BBS about balance and whatnot - but without several completed games such talk is not nearly as convincing no matter which side you come down on.
So far, I have - in 30 years - exactly ONE fully completed game under my belt. Unacceptable (to me). I really am hoping my two active (and later one inactive) game will go to a natural conclusion and see how things go.
-T
You did have that game vs Mike and I where the alliance achieved ship parity with the Coalition around turn 12?
I also only have one completed game and that was a Alliance loss on about T17. It wasn't three capitals yet (Kzin, Fed) but the writing was on the wall. So I've never even played in a game that makes it to PF's. Maybe the result of that loss is informing my strategy here. My intent is that this game goes to the end and then we switch sides and try again. I realize I don't have a lot of mid game experience and no end game experience (although I've played up to T7 or so many times on both sides).
From my understanding of the dynamics and looking at the build schedules I agree that if the Feds make it to turn 20+ and have enough of an economy to maintain full builds the tide will start to turn, or at least stabilize. Whether the game ends as an Alliance win or a draw probably depends too much on the state of the game. I think the chance of a Coaltion win after T25 starts dropping, although, again that is just conjecture on my part and no experience.
So my goal over the next 8 to 10 turns is to reduce as much of the Fed economy as I can and if possible take their capital. That means by turn 10 to 12 I better be staging raids into the capital and devastating outer planets. That view of where I need to be influences my view of Kzin first. Was my T7 attack good enough? I don't know, time will tell on that. Right now I'm pretty much on pace with my internal goals for the game. Whether I can sustain the advance, and whether those goals or that strategy lead to success will be seen over the next few months. My primary T7 goal was sever on map Fed Kzin ties, I don't want to have to defend my path to the Fed capital and the needed FRD park versus attacks coming from multiple directions. That was successful and to me more important than any of the southern Fed BATS kills.