William wrote:
>>Ted I have never made it past turn 21. If the Alliance is holding steady on at that point, with roughly equal EPs each turn to the Coalition, do they tend to make gains later?>>

In my current ongoing game ("And Now For Something Completely Different, Part Deux", like 6 threads up), we are on AT23 right now. As the Coalition, I have been totally in the driver's seat the whole game. Up till about, well, now. The Feds are pushing back significantly at this point (and at no point in the whole game have I been inside the Fed Capital, which certainly is problematic). The arrival of the Tholians on T22, while not overly devastating (as of AT23, they have managed to capture a bunch of NZ hexes and have killed one BATS), certainly is a significant distraction (they that have been limited in their ability to cause damage is the result of the diversion of, like, 80 Coalition ships and 2 or 3 reserves each turn so far).

Is the game over? Not remotely. But as of AT23, the Alliance is *clearly* on the upswing.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 01:06 pm: Edit

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You did have that game vs Mike and I where the alliance achieved ship parity with the Coalition around turn 12?

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 01:08 pm: Edit

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I also only have one completed game and that was a Alliance loss on about T17. It wasn't three capitals yet (Kzin, Fed) but the writing was on the wall.

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By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Peter

I've been following your game commentary and have counted the upswing in Alliance ship counts. I'm by no means certain I'm going to succeed but that's influenced how hard I'm going to try and get as many Fed planets captured as soon as possible to cut their income.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 02:20 pm: Edit

A7 Hydran eco: Despite being cut off between main and capital grids I manage to do some useful stuff - though being cut off meant I converted some AHs I wouldn't have and converted KN->UH I ordinarily wouldn't have - all in favor of bigger ships. But, still, I did manage to spend my EPs, get 10 useful ships (I really could use the AHs anyway), and otherwise do some good.

I'm going to spare the complicated details of dealing with 1 partial and 2 main grids. Here's the upshot.

Total EP: 47.

Pay interest: 1
Repair TG, LN, 2*KN, 3*HN
Build 3*AH, 2*HR, 2*HN, 3*CU.
Convert KN->UH, KN->DE, FFT->AH

Total SEQ actually added: 12.8. Additional SEQ repaired: 7.2. Not too shabby.

Added FFT to depot.

Note that my COE completed a FF MiSY on A5 (source of 7th FF) and is completing a second one this turn.

Edit: Cripple backlog is a whopping 2*HN - both of which are going offmap this turn. One or both are destined for the depot.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Dana,

Yeah, the Feds have been churning out ships. I think a few turns in the late teens, I got them down to below 100 econ for production, but but between salvage, commercial convoys, and the "you can always sub an FF" rule we are using (which may or may not be a reasonable thing in the grand scheme, but we like it, and I think it is a generally pro Alliance rule that I'm in favor of), the Feds have never missed a hull build the whole game.

Like, their *quality* ships are low, relative to how they could potentially be, and there were some turns where they built, like, a CVA and then 29 frigates, but they kept churning and churning, and now are starting to get local superiority, which means a lot of push back and reclaiming space.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Thursday, March 07, 2019 - 02:42 pm: Edit

We aren't using the always sub an FF house rule so we'll see if that makes a difference to ship count. I have been subbing a couple F5Ls the past few turns for E4s but otherwise haven't skipped a ship build yet. Although I do have a moderate debt for both Klingons and Lyrans that I hope to pay down soon.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 08, 2019 - 08:30 am: Edit

I can't imagine that even with the huge number of cripples in this game that the Coalition would ever need to actually skip ship builds. They have numerous unlimited downbuilds they can take advantage of if they need to (DW>FF; in 2K10, the Klingons can turn numerous ship builds into E4s, but that might have been changed with the official downs rule in SO), but even then, there is enough money around that the Coalition shouldn't have trouble building full runs of ships.

The Alliance certainly run into issues, but between ComCon income, salvage, and even just the standard 2 downsubs allowed (plus inherent downsubs for various empires), the Alliance will probably be able to build full runs most of the time anyway. I mean, like, whoever loses their capital will have trouble (in my game, I killed the Hydrans on T5, and since their shipyard has come on line, they have *mostly* done full runs, but almost entirely of CUs, but occasionally they have produced fewer ships than possible due to wanting to get a few heavier hulls on the map, usually to be carriers or good escorts), building wise, but even then, the Alliance can generally build most of their ships.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat2) on Friday, March 08, 2019 - 10:30 am: Edit

One thing that was always unclear to me -- can downsubs be chained? In other words, if you can sub a CA for a DN, and a CW for a CA, and an FF for a CW, does that mean you can sub an FF for a DN? Assuming no house rule that is.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 08, 2019 - 11:18 am: Edit

Yes.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 09:49 am: Edit

A7 Zin Eco: Generated a whopping 30 EPs. Borrowed 2 more (debt stands at 12). Later at raids I get 10 EPs for selling a CL and at strat I'll get 10 more when the offmap Fed ComCon makes it to the Zin offmap.

Build medium shipyard (8). Now have 3 turns of medium yard and 1 of full yard.

Convert FFK to FKE and build FKE at offmap SB.

Repair SR (monster got it lat round), TGC+AA, TGB+BB, TGT+S, MEC, FFK, CVE, SF, EFF, CD, EFF, FFG (18 EPs).

After depot, cripple backlog now down to roughly 18 ships. First depot entries now starting to show up through the queue.


Fed Eco: Slightly more flexibility at 172.25 EPs after 19.75 salvage and 152.5 income (after 75% applied).

Activate GSC (converted mothball CA with DIP income on prior turn), DD, 3*CL, 3*FF. Call up 2*POL, FLG, POV.

Build SP and 2*CONVOY (3601 and 3703) for colony production.

Build DNL, TUG, NCD, 2*NCL, FF, CFF, 2*CLV (SPECIAL), FFE. Build 20*APT (for free strat supplies to Zin). Overbuild FF and overbuild/convert during build 2*FFE. Overbuild 2*NCL.

Funds left over: 20 (destined for Zin).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 09:55 am: Edit

A7 Raids: A successful turn.

HTO: LGE and THR destroy lone FF and E4 in different hexes, and manage to disrupt province 815.

ZTO: combined with a commando raid, disrupt provinces 701 and 1801. DNL gets a bit lucky raiding a 2*E4 in 1506 (after reaction) and ends up killing both - forcing Zursk to revert to its neutral status and setting the annexation clock back to zero (had been captured since turn 2).

FTO: Raid provinces 2108, 2201 (against lone E4), and 2514, as well as Klingon province 2019. All raids succeed, but 2108, where the E4 got very lucky (in a sense) and drove off the CF - but died in the process. I'll take the dead E4 any day of the week.

So, 5 SEQ killed during raids, plus most targeted provinces disrupted. A good turn.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 10:23 am: Edit

A7 Operational. Not done yet, but here are the highlights so far.

HTO: Low key - killing pickets and avoiding the lone reserve in 312. I'll end up liberating 519 and 718 and killing a couple of pickets. Net Coalition SEQ loss will be 4 SEQ (as well as 5 garrisoned provinces and 2 planets). Hydran losses will be zero (*maybe* one cripple in 118). Not spectacular, but the price is right and I do nothing to endanger 617.

ZTO. I *empty* the Barony. And I mean that almost literally. No Zin reserves this turn. I'm even bringing the cripples and the auxes onto the map this turn. Even the MON-V enters the map and does a fighter strike!

Basically, I did a lot of math and thinking and saw that he under-garrisoned the ZTO, leaving me able to pin all his reserves (but one in 1807 - and that one is likely going elsewhere (see below)) and the ability to attack 1401 with a force he could not possibly defeat. This required me to bring everything on the map - and it will result in 2-3 battles where I might take more than just an escort FF in loss - so I'm guaranteed to lose at least 4-5 SEQ this turn.

However, it worked. Seeing the writing on the wall, Dana abandoned 1401 before I could sit on the weak forces there (they reacted to 1502 where he had a large force that I was in the process of pinning via movement to 1501 (where there is another pinning battle)). This is going to cost the Coalition 24 EPs (12 this turn, 12 next after he reconquers Kzintai). Woot.

The damage continues. With the cripples and the Auxes (and with his reserves pinned or out of range) I'm also going to liberate 1001 (captured since turn 2), 1105 (captured since turn 3), and kill some pickets (2). Unless he saves planet 1504 (conquered since turn 2) with his powerful reserve in 1807, he'll lose that and a picket too - *and* the Marquis fleet (6 ships) will manage to get home unharmed.

Dana easily could have prevented this, but he overplayed his hand in the FTO and concentrated his powerful fleets (which I'm in no condition to fight an extended battle) in planets other than the capital.

Definitely a good turn for the Zin. Score 1 for the home team. I'm enjoying the moment, because I figure it's going to be short lived when Admiral Nida is replaced by Admiral Piet.... After C8 it will probably be a while before I can reclaim 1401.

The FTO has also been highly active, punctuated by many small groups of ships since it's been an interesting game of who gets to react and why. Overall, very interesting turn tactically speaking. Most of F&E is about either avoiding reactions or pinning a local force so that reactions become impossible. Here, with the Klingon SEQ superiority, I could not do that - but I am having success despite Dana's many reactions. It highlights the difficulty the non-phasing player has in figuring out what the phasing player is doing when you're making reaction decisions (especially early).

In the Northern FTO, second fleet moves to 2403 to liberate the planet from 2*C5 and 2*FD7. Elements of Home fleet move to liberate 2306.

An interesting reaction decision came at 2205. Dana put 4th fleet and some 8 cripples (including a CVS) into quite a pickle - surrounded by Klingons and a very powerful reserve in 1807 with a D7A (and he has a mauler). I could bleed really bad right here. I predicted correctly that Dana would use a powerful fleet in 2305 to pin my move to 2205.

Now came the interesting coordination part. After shuffling some minor loose stuff around East fleet in 2111 (31 SEQ), I predicted correctly that Dana would be sending groups of multiple ships to pin my approaching single pickets in hopes of picking them off. Which he might/will - especially with reserves in the region. I then moved a group of 12 ships from SB 2211 north 1 hex on the way to relieve 4th fleet.

I guessed correctly that Dana would react 12 ships to stop them. Now only 14 SEQ remains of East fleet in 2111 compared to my 25 in 2211. However, now I send 2*DNL and 2*CF from Home fleet in 2908 to the fight in 2210 (DNL built this turn, other fast ships either OOB or pre-war conversions with DIP income). That increases my SEQ by 8, which will now make it possible to *both* relieve 4th fleet regardless of whether East fleet goes to 2210 (less a ship or three since I did a fighter strike in East fleet) *and* send ships down south for a fun little maneuver.

In the southern FTO, after playing poker ante'ing 1 ship at a time, I have 7th fleet (12 SEQ) against TBS (9 SEQ of *MUCH* better ships) in 2914. Earlier, I got him to react a D7V group and E4R to 3*POL and fighter strike from BATS 2816 into 2815. I also sent DD and fighter strike from 2612 to 2713 to kill a picket. That now leaves a CVT group in 2715, which will now get a visit from a strike force from 3rd Fleet and kick them off of planet 2715. He has 1 weak reserve in range, and it won't help.

Odds are good I will cut off Coalition supply to Orion - which will result in me capturing an uncrippled E4A. Woot. He'll just re-establish supply to Orion on C8 - but hey, it's the principle of the matter.

So, these maneuvers will result in me kicking him off of all Fed planets except 2106, despite being numerically outnumbered strategically. That will hinder his operations in deeper Fed space on C8.

It's difficult to say whether it's going to be worth the SEQ loss - but I'm guessing I'm going to give as good as I get in that department. I might do a bit better - but that will likely depend on what he does with his D7A reserve in 1807. If he sends it to Fed 4th fleet I could end up with many casualties (between the mauler, stasis, and just plain massive fleet superiority in a hex where I have a lot of cripples). If he sends it to 1504, I'll lose a couple more Zins and he'll keep the planet. Dunno what he'll do.

Anyway, net result is good strategically, I think, no matter what. I've made it harder for him to manage deep Fed operations on C8, and delay is the name of the game for the Alliance. I'll also end up with three powerful reserves which I will make sure are unpinnable. That should also make his life a bit more misreable on C8.

So, overall, a good turn no matter how combat turns out. It looks like it will be fairly lossy on SEQ for both sides - we'll have to see who fairs better in that department (and again that depends somewhat on Dana's choices). Either way, though, I've cost the Coalition a pretty penny in both SEQ direct economic losses (somewhere around 35 EPs or so).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 10:37 am: Edit

Correction. Mon-V can't do fighter strike - Dana pointed that out to me.

Fixed on the map prior to actual use.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 03:32 pm: Edit

@Paul Howard: I generated 25 battle hexes this turn as the Alliance, and kicked the Coalition out of 1401 on A7. Is that aggressive enough for ya? =)

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Correction: 4 SE died during raids, only 1 E4 at Zursk, the other unit was 6 fighters off adjacent BATS.

Made a mistake that is going to cost my income for the next two turns. Thought I was safe with the number of ships in the ZTO but obviously needed about 10 more. Probably pushed for one more Fed BATS than I needed to last round, could have used a few more ships in a reserve group.

Oh well, in ZTO I am disadvantaged at 4 to 5 fights where I will lose a single ship and leave a captured planet. Advantaged at a couple big fights where I am likely to get a few kills and we have an equal fight at 1502 and I'm curious to see how hard he may fight there to kick me off the major. At least the one place he has a reason to fight hard he doesn't have a lot of fighters. His major CV group is at 1202 where I guess it will fight a round and run.

In the HTO I will lose 4 ships to nothing as he takes back 2 planets and kills a couple province raiders. But otherwise nothing there changes, I'll have to add a couple new ships as replacements but I probably had a few more than I needed to keep him bottled up.

Fed is a mixed bag. I'm highly likely to lose a fast ship and a D5 at planets 2403 and 2306 respectively. I'm advantaged with a decent fleet, D7A and mauler vs the 4th fleet and support at 2205. Then I'm going to kill a few single FFs and he will get a few E4 or F5s at various fights. A reserve group to 2210 turned an equal pin fight my way and I should kill a couple ships there. Then I may be able to keep the path to Orion open in a fight of what's left of the 7th fleet versus the Klingon fleet that dropped the SB. That's very close, I have slightly better ships but he has 3 more ships. It may come down to mauler shock rolls, if I can maul without shocking for 2 or 3 rounds Ted could get tired of getting DD's blown up for cheap.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Ted - yes!

Recapturing 1401 - even briefly at least forces the Coalition to send several ships back to evict the Kzinti - and the Feds need all the help they can get.

Dana - mistakes happen in war - the loss of 1401 is annoying but not significant.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Ted wrote:
>>So, 5 SEQ killed during raids, plus most targeted provinces disrupted. A good turn.>>

Like, I realize that this game has a *lot* of cripples, so I imagine that small ships for province garrisons are currently in short supply, but how are there so many single ships for targeting by raids?

Like, since I have been using the (regular, non special) raid rules, the main effect of them has been to force the Coalition to double up FFs in province garrisons (so there are, say, like, F5, E4 in hex A and F5, E4 in adjacent hex B in a neighboring province, so a raid is going to end up facing 3 ships, at least the 1st time, so that first raid seems very unattractive). As such, I don't think a single ship has been killed by a raid in, like, 20+ turns in our current game. And raids generally just disrupt provinces and kill imaginary POLs.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 06:06 pm: Edit

@Peter: Dana has been leaving single ships as pickets. If he left more groups I'd have fewer targets. On the other hand, those extra ships are now giving the Feds more grief...

@Paul: I wouldn't call the loss of 1401 "not significant". 25 EPs is nothing to sneeze at (two turns of planets plus 1 turn of province), not even for the Coalition. However, it certainly is not a "game breaker" - perhaps that is what you meant. I'd call it a minor victory for the Zin - simply part of the harassment they do to help the Feds stay alive.

By Dana Madsen (Dfm330) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Peter, few mistakes on my part on the raids. I'm doing better on doubling up with sufficient force to deter the but a couple got left at risk this turn. Some purposely as I just didn't have a second ship to spare in the area. Two were just goofs in Hydran space though so I gave his LGE + PT something to do.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Fair enough; like, I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, I'm just, like, "Huh. Interesting."

Like, in the 2 or 3 games I have played with raids so far in my life, my reaction to the raid rules is "That is a *lot* of words that just say to double up province garrison frigates..."

:-)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Call up 2*POL, FLG, POV.

Ted = FLG is SPR call-up (531.31) and POV is FAL call-up (531.41).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Not for Feds?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Feds, Klingons and ISC can call 1 FLG and 1 PV each turn. See (531.31), (531.41) and (713.23).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 13, 2019 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Thanks for everyone's input. Even when we're wrong (and it frequently is me), this game needs players to stay alive, so I'm very appreciative of any constructive comments!

A7 combat is concluded.

I accomplished all major objectives, except one (and it was really only an "icing" kind of objective). To wit:

1) Killed pickets in Hydran space and cleared Hydran space of many Klingons, depriving them of captured income while taking no casualties in return. KIA in the HTO: D5, 2xF5, 2xE4, FF (including raids). Net 6 SEQ loss.

I didn't have the forces and/or the stomach for a major trade off to kick the Coalition off of 416, and I simply didn't have the forces to remove the MB being placed in 312.

I will end up with two decent reserves in the HTO.

2) The Kzinti kicked the Coalition off of 1401. This will cost them 25 EPs in lost income (12 from captured planets C8, 12 C9, and 1 from loss of captured province income C8). While hardly a game changer, it is large enough to be significant. The Kzinti also cleared planets 1001, 1104, and 1504, including their provinces. That's another 9 lost income.

By the way, got more use out of that second LAD I built - helped me win the day at planet 1001. So, that's the third use I've gotten out of it so far!

Took some losses here to make this all happen, but considering that he had very powerful fleets (most Lyran DNs/BCs) I think I did all right.

Kzinti KIA: FFK, 2*FKE (all lost in pursuit), and POL. I left a crippled FFT in 1304 to make sure I had a retrograde path home for all ships on map, so really it's a loss too. So, no salvage, net 5 SEQ loss.

Kzinti WIA (and this *matters* to the cash-strapped Zin): FF, CVS, 2*MEC, 2*CLE, 2*FKE, 2*EFF, FTL. Theoretically 14.5 EPs in damage, but realistically it's less than that and more like more time using the depot...

Coalition KIA: BC, DN, 2xDD, (PT), and F5, E4G (raids). 6 SEQ losses. Net -1 SEQ to coalition, *but* obviously the BC and DN are bigger deals.

Coalition WIA: 3*CW, DW, 3*FF, D6M, D5, F5, E4, E3, FV. 17.5 EPs to repair, theoretically.

From a pure economic standpoint, the Zin delivered 93 EPs in economic damage, but took 25.5 in economic losses (assuming I pay to repair everything).

Of course, the Zin have lost EVERYTHING on the map, so it's kind of misleading figure if you're trying to draw overall conclusions. Still, overall, a very good turn for the Zin.

Kzinti will have no reserves this turn. I mean, I used everything but 4 crippled ships to pull this off!

3) Federation objectives were 3-fold. First (and foremost) kick the Klingons off as many planets as possible to hamper deeper operations in Federation territory. Second, save as much as 4th fleet and their cripples as possible. Third, try to cut Klingon supply to Orion and capture the E4A there by default. Fourth, kill pickets.

Considering that the Klingons had all 4 reserves (one weak, two medium, one powerful) on the Fed border, plus numerical superiority - overall I did well, getting 2 of 4 objectives done.

3a) Planets. I just didn't have the forces needed to take *all* Klingon occupied planets. However, I did kick him off of 3 of 4: 2715, 2403, and 2306. That just leaves 2106 in Klingon hands. That helps reduce Klingon penetration on C8.

3b) Saving 4th fleet. This one was a *wild* success. However, I can't really claim the credit. I got *incredibly* lucky. He tried for 3 freezes with the D7A and got the "total disaster!" result - meaning he got nothing and the D7A was lost. Then, he rolled a "6" on pursuit and so got none of my cripples. Thus, a possible boondoggle turned into a "mere" loss of a Federation DN due to mauling (and that's it really). I did, however, manage to get 5 ships to the 4th fleet, which helped tremendously on the one required battle round, so I did have at least a little credit.

3c) Cutting off Orion. This failed. Honestly, I think I bit off more than I could chew. He saved a fight with his weak reserve, and that maintained his connection to Orion. In retrospect, I should not have wasted the forces. Instead, I should have sent *everything* up north, whereupon I *could* have kicked him off of 2106, and had better forces for defending 4th fleet. Luck there blunted my losses, but the fact remains I got greedy. Lesson learned. Again. Maybe some day I'll take it to heart, but gamers are in some ways gamblers, and gamblers never learn...

3d) Killing pickets. This really counts as a failure. In my movement shenanigans, I ended up costing myself pickets to buy the SEQ needed to try to accomplish both 3a and 3b. So, greed kills.

Tale of the tape:

Federation KIA: DN, CC, 3*FF, SAV, E4A (previously captured but not converted) (7 SEQ).

Federation WIA: DNL, CC, CF, COV (8.5 EP to repair).

Klingon KIA: D7A, D5, 3*E4 (one captured), F5E, E4A (7 SEQ, but really 8 since one of the E4s goes to the Feds).

Klingon WIA: C5, 2*F5, 3*D5, AD5 (10.5 EP to reapair).

I'd call that moderate success. But it's better than nothing!

Feds will end up with 3 good reserves.