Archive through March 11, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through March 11, 2019
Garth, happy to help. Here is the current map. It is the reserve movement phase of Coalition turn 6.
Current Map
I (the Zin player) am attempting to use 203.732 to send one of the reserve fleets to 1502 in order to open a path to combat hex 1605 for the other reserve fleet.
Assume this is the only combat hex for purposes of this example.
Here's the link itself if clicking on the above doesn't work.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8momogsgh1uy5pz/Art%20of%20Zin%20Reserve%20Movement%20CT6.jpg?dl=0
It is not apparent from the map. However, in terms of Coalition ship equivalents, hex 1401 has 25 SEQ, hex 1502 has 6 SEQ (note the BS does not have fighters), hex 1601 has 6 SEQ, and hex 1701 has 5 SEQ.
The rules question at issue is whether or not there is an interaction between rule 302.74 (which requires you to go through hex 1701 having the fewest units) and rule 302.732 (which just allows you to open a path for another reserve heading for hex 1605 - but does not have a "minimum" associated with it (and accordingly allows me to send a second reserve to 1502 to open the path)).
-T
From the map...
Call me stupid (people often do) - but 1502 doesn't appear to be even a legal route to 1605 (and perhaps the wrong questions has been asked, as having gone through 203.73 and 203.74 there perhaps is a point unclear).
203.73 - Shortest Route - Which is 1601 to 1605 (5 hexes) - rest are 6 hexes
203.74 - Best Path
203.741 - Ignored as all hexes have ships in
203.742 - 50% Rule - So based on Size of Reserves, 1401 is not permitted, rest are (note a smaller reserve might require it to use 1701)
203.7421 - Min Pin - So 1701 beats 1601 and 1502.
203.7422 - OK (Fighter Eq etc)
203.7423 - Route which uses fewest pins.
So 1701 wins - but if the 1601 route is the primary route - does the force go to 1602 (2 Pins) or 1702 (no pins, but turns route into 6 hexes).
So entry hexes are : -
Shortest is 1601
Fewest Pins is 1701
Primary Shortest Route and then fewer pins is 1601 and 1702
So, is the question which rule trumps the other -
Shortest Route or Fewest Pins?
Also, is the route also judged one hex at a time - or across the entire route?
Therefore - depending on which 'rule trumps' which rule, the route is either 1601,1602,1603, 1604, 1605, or 1601,1702, 1703, 1603, 1604, 1605 or 1701, 1702, 1703, 1603, 1604, 1605 - due to shortest route and/or fewest pins.
If one of the reserve fleets started smaller, that might allow a reserve fleet to go to 1601 or 1701, as they remain (depending on the answer to the two questions), the primary two initial hexes.
My gut feeling is that the entire route is assessed first - and then fewest pins trumps shortest route - so the 1701 to 1605 route would seem the most logical.
But clearly this is just my 2p.
Ted, and where are the reserve fleets located right now?? Off-map?? And what are their paths?
Garth L. Getgen
I thought about the route, both using 203.74 and assuming the ruling allows it 203.732.
But if you get to the point that you need to open a path using 203.732, that will end up becoming best path for 203.74. I also don't see anything that would indicate you have to open a specific path, ie if it is decided that the Kzinti 2nd reserve is needed to open a path to open a path for the 1st Reserve to 1605 then I think Ted gets to choose which path he opens. I see nothing the would force him to open 1701 because it is an easier path than 1502, 5SE versus 6SE.
Actually maybe that is another question. It doesn't apply here but assuming you are allowed to send a reserve to open a path to the target hex, could you send it to a hex that opens a path that isn't the best path by 203.74 That could become abusive but I don't see it as prohibited.
I may post a specific example of what I am thinking later.
Anyways, if we don't get an answer soon, we are going to continue the game. I've told Ted that absent a fast ruling I'm ok with reserves as indicated and if a different ruling comes later we will know that for next time. Losing the setup BS and possibly a slow unit will be annoying but isn't going to ultimately impact any plans for a hard T7 Fed invasion or the challenge I threw out.
I see both arguments and believe there is an ambiguity here in the wording though that can allow different interpretations and it should be clarified.
Garth, both reserves are off map. Their routes are the point of the question.
One interpretation is that the 1st Reserve can make it to 1605 leaving behind 2 ships in 1701 to satisfy the pin requirements. Due to command differences the kzin don't need to leave 5 SE. That was my understanding when I ended movement. I hoped to tax him a ship on his way through to save the BATS and did not consider the alternative.
The other interpretation is that 2nd reserve is required to open a path for 1st Reserve to arrive at 1605 (that allows 1st Reserve to arrive with all of its ships) and a Ted has chosen to open the path through 1502 and blow up my BS and upgrade while he is at it.
Dana
I would disagree - the route the 1st reserve fleet will take is clearly important - as otherwise, it's not following the required path.
It is clear the intent is that reserves take the path of the least resistance - and allowing a second reserve fleet to basically go in a random direction to then allow the main fleet to also go in a random direction, doesn't make sense.
But using the rules, the primary single bullet point rule is 'shortest' route and the other bullet point rules mention pinning - only if there are equal routes does the player get a choice.
So, if a reserve fleet was required - it would need to go to 1601 or 1701 - as they are the shortest routes/lowest pin requirement.
@Garth: Both Kzinti reserves (16 SEQ each) are in the Kznti offmap.
@Garth & Paul:
203.73 says I have to use the "shortest path". However, I can select among multiple paths of equal length that are "shortest". The rules also allow for two exceptions, one of which is 203.732.
Therefore, I would argue that (because I'm trying to use 203.732) I do not have to observe the shortest path limitation that ordinarily applies to reserve movement.
If a shortest path DID apply, then it must be starting from hex *1601* because that route is only 5 hexes long. However, gain, I think that the last sentence of 203.73 provides an explicit exception to the normal rule that I must select the shortest path.
I would also argue that 203.74 forms, effectively, another exception to the shortest legal path of 203.73. The reason is that 203.74 states that if a reserve fleet *can* reach a target battle hex without entering a hex containing enemy units, it must do so, but that it *can* enter a hex with enemy units under the conditions of 203.741. However, the "minimum unit" requirement of 203.7423 would effectively force me to select 1701 as the path through (assuming I choose, or am required to, select 203.74 as my way to get to 1605) - even though this is not the "shortest" path per 203.73.
Honestly, what we need here is a flowchart, or at least a defined sequence of *when* the determinations of 203.73 and 203.74 are made relative to one another. Whether my interpretation or Dana's original interpretation is correct, a flowchart or defined sequence is possible.
I'm going to add this request to the Q&A.
Quote:It is clear the intent is that reserves take the path of the least resistance - and allowing a second reserve fleet to basically go in a random direction to then allow the main fleet to also go in a random direction, doesn't make sense.
Paul, please reconcile this assertion with the explicit exception to the shortest path rule stated in the last sentence of 203.73.
Please also reconcile this assertion with the requirement of 203.7423 that the "best" path must be the route which requires the detachment of the fewest ships (note that in my specific situation the "best" path of 203.7423 is NOT the shortest path).
OK, I have formally recast my question on reserve movement. I want to know *when* I make decisions with respect to using 203.74 and 203.732.
Ted
To be honest - I had no idea - but then reread 203.7423...
Assuming you trace the paths out - 1701 is the required entry point.
1601 becomes 6 hexes - as you would have to go around 1602 (rather than through it - 203.74).
So - in your example
All are 6 to hexes to 1605.
1401 is blocked
1501 and 1601 require greater pinning than 1701.
So the legal route is via 1701.
If the second reserve fleet was say a 2 ship equivalent (at the start of the phase) - you could place a reserve fleet in 1701, to allow the ship reserve to get to 1605.
1401, 1501 and 1601 fail the legal path route.
If 1501 and 1701 had equal pinning values, you would then get the choice, but if say 1602 was empty and 1601 had equal pinning as 1501 and 1701, it would become the legal path route due to being 5 hexes.
The question though is
If Route A is say 5 hexes and has 3 Ships to pin or Route B is say 6 hexes and has 2 Ships to pin - which route is required? (i.e. what trumps - pin or shortest route).
To me - the confusion is 203.73 Objective and 203.74 Best Path seem to have equal priority.
If 203.74 added shortest route to the list (like retreat priority hexes does) - that would resolve it 
Paul,
I see your point on the intent of the rules in the best path and using that intent in guiding your decision on which hex you would go to in opening a path if you used 203.732. When this first came up, I went looking to see if there was anything I could use to tell Ted that he had to go to 1701. But I couldn't point to any words other than arguing intent in adjacent rules.
So I didn't bring it up as a point in my discussion with Ted based on the following. Steve Cole, to me, is never afraid to add more detail to a rule if he feels it's needed to convey his intent. If he wanted your interpretation, all he needed to do was add a sentence that says, "When using One Reserve Fleet to open a path for a subsequent Reserve Fleet and there is a choice of battle hexes, select the battle hex that satisfies the Best Path in (203.74)." To me, the fact that he didn't add that sentence means that it's Reserve Players choice. Now this is only my interpretation, and he could pop back in here and state that I'm wrong and that would be ok.
Similarly, in (203.71), sending a reserve fleet to open supply. The rule says you can create a battle hex to open supply. It doesn't say that if you have a choice of hexes you must go to the one that would open a supply path to the shortest route. You could certainly interpret it this way based on many other rules in the book. But then you run into other problems, what if you are using a 10 ship reserve group and you could move to a hex that would open up supply to a source 3 hexes away from your target but you need to fight and win against another 10 ship force. Or you could move to a hex that would open up supply to a source that is 6 hexes away and you need to fight and win versus a single ship. So by leaving it unstated, to me, he's implicitly stating it's players choice.
Agree with both Paul and Dana's last posts.
Honestly, this situation is *rare*. I think it took a rare situation to find the ambiguity in the reserve movement rules, because most of the time it is *very* straightforward. It's not often that you get *three* possible hexes, one of which is "shortest" and either .732 or .74 could apply. That is RARE.
However, I think the game will be better whichever way this issue falls. The solution, IMHO, is to set a procedure or flow that specifies when and how you can make a decision in a reserve situation like this.
So, we have indication from FEAR that the resolution to this rules question will NOT be swift (swift = day or two).
Therefore, just for everyone's general edification, Dana and I have agreed that we want to keep our game moving forward. Dana has graciously agreed to play things according to my interpretation (which is the non-phasing player gets to select between .732 and .74 if both apply).
Therefore, whichever way this ruling ultimately comes down, for our game only, one of the Kzinti reserves is going to hit 1502 to open a path to the combat hex in 1605 (according to 203.732).
So it is possible I missed some subtlety in the argument (as I haven't read all of this discussion), but isn't the answer to this question clearly spelled out in the rules?
(203.732) "One reserve fleet could be used to open a path for a subsequent reserve fleet which has a legal objective hex, *as long as there was no possible alternative by which that subsequent reserve unit could reach the objective hex*".
"As long as there is no possible alternative" seems pretty clear to me. As such, doesn't (203.741) clearly take precedence over (203.732)?
i.e. if you can get to a particular battle hex by virtue of (203.741), you must do that (i.e. go through a hex with half as many ships as you and leave pinning ships behind) before you can use (203.732) (send a 1st reserve to a non battle hex to open a path for the second reserve fleet).
I'm not quite sure why this seems ambiguous :-)
Peter
Is it more complex than that.
Can you reduce the size of a reserve to allow 203.732 to be activated?
Can the 203.732 hex be anywhere - or does it have to follow the normal legal route etc.
Which trumps - Shortest Route or Fewest Pin (example I gave was 5 hexes and pin 3 ships or 6 hexes and pin 2 shops).
Sure, I'm sure there are wrinkles in there, but the rules seem fairly clear that (203.741) takes precedence over (203.732), i.e. if there is a way that a reserve fleet can get to the target hex without another reserve fleet creating a new battle hex, it must do that before you are allowed to us (203.732).
So you have to exhaust all possible ways to get a reserve fleet to the target hex before you can use a different reserve fleet to create a new battle hex to make open a path. At least how I read it.
Can Reserve Fleet 1 get to the target battle hex it wants to get to? Even if it means going a way that is sub optimal, or removes more ships than you want, or you have to send the whole thing to do it instead of leaving ships behind? Then it has to do that if it wants to go there, and you can't opt to use Reserve Fleet 2 to create a new battle hex to open a path. If Reserve Fleet 1 *can't* get to the target battle hex by any possible way, then Reserve Fleet 2 can be used to create a new battle hex if it lets Reserve Fleet 1 get to the target hex.
>>Can you reduce the size of a reserve to allow 203.732 to be activated? >>
I'd imagine not, as the rule says "As long as there is no possible alternative"; if reducing the size of the reserve fleet voluntarily still provides a possible alternative (i.e. don't reduce the size of the reserve fleet).
>>Can the 203.732 hex be anywhere - or does it have to follow the normal legal route etc. >>
It can be anywhere within all the relevant rules, presumably.
>>Which trumps - Shortest Route or Fewest Pin (example I gave was 5 hexes and pin 3 ships or 6 hexes and pin 2 shops).>>
That doesn't matter in regards to (203.741); can Reserve Fleet 1 make it to the target hex, regardless of how? If yes, then you can't use (203.732).
I mean, yeah, the rule is complicated, and there is certainly ambiguity here and there, but the basic premise seems pretty straight forward.
Peter
Totally agree on 203.732 - I am not in the game where it has occurred and was trying to help out.
.73 and .74 though to me did seem unclear and perhaps a ruling would help there.
Oh, sure, like, I have zero dogs in this fight, and a specific ruling probably couldn't hurt at all, and Ted's description of the situation seems more complicated than what I am addressing.
But on a base level, the rulebook seems very clear that (203.741) is the primary rule, and (203.732) only can be used if and when you exhaust all possible ways to get to the target hex via (203.741).
The problem is that (203.72) allows ships to be dropped from the reserve, in which case, (203.731/2) kicks in and it does NOT have 'shortest route' or 'least SE used' and the second reserve can go beyond the opposing ship line through the first reserve battle hex.
Note that (203.74) is not involved in the above.
Stewart
I am not sure you can randomly target any blocking hex - I can see several unintended consequences arising - not often, but occasionally.
Also, 203.72 is when the fleet moves - I don't believe you can reduce the size of reserve fleet A.... declare the target of fleet A now blocked.....so move fleet B to the blocking hex to allow Fleet A to get to the original hex - due to you can't start moving one fleet - moving another then going back to the original AND it being a self inflicted failure of 'by another other means possible'.
But I might be totally wrong.
Stewart wrote:
>>The problem is that (203.72) allows ships to be dropped from the reserve, in which case, (203.731/2) kicks in and it does NOT have 'shortest route' or 'least SE used' and the second reserve can go beyond the opposing ship line through the first reserve battle hex. >>
Sure. But again, I think the important, governing rule here is the one in (203.741) that says "As long as there is no possible alternative" for the first reserve to get to the target hex.
Using (203.72) to drop ships strikes me as subservient (rulewise) to (203.741). If dropping ships from the reserve does not allow the 1st reserve to get to the target hex, there is still a "possible alternative" to get there--don't drop the ships.
(203.732) One reserve fleet could be used to open a path for a subsequent reserve fleet which has a legal objective hex, as long as there was no possible alternative by which that subsequent reserve unit could reach the objective hex.
Is there a "possible alternative" that gets Reserve Fleet 1 to target battle hex? If yes? You can't use (203.741).
I mean, again, yeah, I see possible ambiguity here and there in these rules, and a clarification/ruling could probably be used. But (203.732) seems pretty clear to me as a main rules crux.
Quote:The Romulan Bats in hexes 4010 an 4110. 4010 is listed as BATS F6 and 4110 is BATS G1.
Fleet of the West deployment zone for GW is Province 4010 which includes both bases.
In Demon of the Eastern Wind and the STRATCON Playtest combined scenario is 4110 a Gorn border base. The justification for considering 4110 as a Gorn border (and deployment base for Fleet of the North) is how Klingon BATS 1707 and 1807 are treated with 1707 Northern Fleet and Kzinti border and 1807 Eastern Fleet and Federation Border.
This will change the setups in 704 Order of Battle for Basic F&E and the Online Order of Battles.
Ryan, that is how Bill and I have handled those 2 bases for the Empires of the Dead game. Winds Aloft should be adjusted as well to match that if it hasn't already.
Note: This post provided for information only and is not disputing the change in a published scenario, or a number of playtest scenarios.
Stewart Frazier --
Q&A Discussion should go here. You may be correct about the intended meaning of (603.54). The problem is that the rule is confusing enough that I can't tell. Aside from the contradictions I highlighted in my question, there is the following problem. Suppose the Klingons never attack the Federation? Then if the Feds attack the Klingons, a literal reading of (603.54) would suggest that even if the Romulans attack the Federation, the Gorn will stay out of it. That's nuts, and it's also contradicted by other rules, as I highlight in my question.
I seem to recall bringing up this question. It may have been resolved. Have you done a keyword search in the F&E topic using the rule number as a search term? You may already have an answer.
Thanks Ted, your post led me to the following. It would seem to make sense, though it's not clear to me if it's an official rule. And the fact that it's not clear if it is or not seems to lead to this coming up maybe once a year on average, according to the search.
Quote:
By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 02:46 am: Edit
I'm inclined to discuss the following:
CURRENT RULE
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans or Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
CHANGE TO READ
(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with both the Romulans and the Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side).
THEN ADD THE FOLLOWING:
(603.123) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side). However, if the Klingons or Lyrans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Klingon or Lyran attack.
(603.124) If the Federation starts a war with the Klingons or the Lyrans, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and then they join the other side) or if the Romulans later attack the Federation; the Gorn my enter the war the as an alliance member the turn after a Romulan attack.
