Archive through March 30, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through March 30, 2019
Worth noting that the above still leaves unresolved the question of what happens if the Feds go full Napoleon and attack both the Klingons and the Romulans, and as of turn 12 the Romulans have entered Federation territory. Does the "Turn #12" rule control at that point, or does the modified (603.54)?
That said, it's less pressing, because the Feds are unlikely to go full Napoleon.
From Q&A:
About inactive fleets (600.3). Can fighters from bases in the region of an inactive fleet react outside of the inactive fleet's region?
They cannot, this has come up in Q&A before I think.
Question posted in Q&A - as I have re-read Shipyards and Engineers for my game with Jim (as I feel they are very strong combined) and my understanding of them may or may not be wrong in what they can do.
"Interlinked question on Engineers and Off Map Areas.
207 seems to infer the Off Map areas are a single area - your either Off Map - or not, which is fine in the basic game.
PO Colonial Developments (446) and Shipyards (450) introduces locations though and SO Engineers (541) expands on this.
Prior to the destruction of a Major Shipyard (Capital Hex), Engineers are permitted to work on Minor Shipyards.
Engineers are not permitted to work on a Medium or Major Ship yard (or do anything other than move a MB or used as a SAF) in Capital Hexes.
So the questions are
1) If the Major shipyard has been destroyed, can an Engineer be used for other functions in the Off Map Area (Build minor Shipyards for example)?
2) If the Engineer is in the Off Map area, can it be used to complete one task and then the following turn, immediately start on a new task?
For Example - Turn 4 (170) a Hydran or Lyran Engineer starts building a FF Minor Shipyard at one of the Major Planets in their Off Map Area (it is physically started in the Turn 4 production phase) - and completes it on turn 5 (in what appears to be the production phase, but possibly it needs to remain at that location during the rest of the turn to complete the yard).
So, can the same Engineer on turn 6 start a new Minor Shipyard at the other Major Planet (or SB) - or does it need to 'move' to the new location?
The outcome can also be applied to Tugs building a Shipyard too.
It may be the Engineer (or Tug) just has to move to the required location on the turn the initial construction costs are started to be paid - which is how Colonial Developments appear to permitted to be build (446.12 and 446.13).
504.14 also states the Tug (or equivalent) needs to be in the hex where it is being built, which would either infer Minor Shipyards can't be built in the off map area (as it is not a hex) or if Hex and Off Map areas are interchangeable terminology, the Engineer Units can't be used with a Off Map replacement Capital.
So, are 'Hexes' and the Off Map location one and the same and how does that effect Minor Shipyards and Engineers? "
At worst for the Alliance - no one can build Minor Shipyards Off Map and at best they can use Engineers Off Map to build Minor Shipyards (even if they have lost their capital) - so quite a large range of outcomes is possible.
How do people play them and can the Alliance use them more than I think they can?
Thanks
I am not quite sure about the exact rule numbers.
But the order of battle in the maelstrom scenario establishes most of the allied shipyards and atleast the lyran ones in their respective off-map areas.
So building them offmap would obviously be permitted.
And as the Federation for example has only one SB offmap as a fixed location, I guess all of their nine minor shipyards would be treated as in the same location if required.
As to the use of ENG to build them. I remember the rule preventing the ENG from functioning in the capital hex. I would need to check on it, but is their really a rule preventing them from building shipyards offmap? That would be somehow weird.
The only ruling I would really expect is the case where one of the allies ist pushed offmap with their capital and the capital location would be the only single offmap location at all. I if recall correctly that case would only apply the the federation, right?
Did I understand your question correctly?
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Sören Klein
Interesting. I've build MiSYs offmap in almost every game I've played after those rules came out.
My guess is that it's allowed.
Soren and Ted
A Minor Shipyard can only be built at a Major Planet or Star Base - which limits it to 1 for the Federation (weirdly, no major planets off map), 1 for the Gorn (and Romulans, I think they get the off map SB?), 2 for the Kzinti and 3 for the Lyrans and Hydrans - and none for the Klingon.
So there is a small finate limit on what can be built off map.
Soren yes I think as it's written - there is a mismatch between Hex terminology and Off Map terminology, which affects what can and can't be done there.
All but the Klingons are required to build their new shipyard in the Off Map location and can operate normally* - (currently - as there was aa proposal a couple of years ago to allow off map raids/combat and it was declined) and to be honest, if the Klingons have lost 1411, it sounds like it will be pretty terminal for the Coalition (unless they capture 3 alliance capitals!).
* Other than Engineers can't work in the Capital hex and can't be used to build a Medium or Major Shipyard.
There is no rule that states that a starbase or major planet is limited to no more than one minor shipyard built at that location.
Haven't you presumed that the language means only 1 per SB or major planet? 450.13 only states "Minor shipyards can be built at any major planet or at any starbase of the owning player not in the capital hex, even in an inactive fleet area." Seems like to me that this language permissively allows you to build up to the limit of MiSYs at a single qualified location.
Though you would be correct about the Klingons - none in the Lyran offmap. I typically pile all their MiSYs at 1112.
I'd also note the Roms can't build a MiSY offmap - no SB or major.
However, all other empires that I know of, except Tholian, may build all of their MiSYs offmap.
Weird - with 450.111 I interpreted it to be 1 Minor SY per location/hex - but your right, 450.13 doesn't have a limiting factor.
glad that's sorted now since I was under the impression no limits when I posted about minor shipyards (not the use of engineers though) do you not think this is now neutral gain,not a pro coalition paul?.
as long as ofcourse there is the required major to build at.
Jim - At this stage, it doesn't change it.
If it is ruled Engineers can build the Minor Shiyards, even if the Medium/Major Shipyard is also at the same location (i.e. offmap), it would certainly give the Kinti and Hydrans options.
Whether they are better options or not I don't know (2 x FF Yards and 2 x CW yards would take 12 turns and the use of the Engineer Unit, rather than possibly 6 turns for the Major shipyard, but it would save you 42 Ep's).
But that's assuming the Engineer can be used (which it probably can, but not as the rules are as written, IMHO) 
Engineers cannot help build minor shipyards at a capital hex. Keeping in mind the exact wording is helpful, it does not say medium/major shipyard. The distinction does mean that a capital hex that doesn't have such a shipyard STILL disqualifies the engineer from most missions.
Note that 'capital hex' and 'offmap area' are NOT the same thing. It seems obvious to me (and others) that you can in fact use Engineers in offmap areas even if a capital is in one. I also suspect that the Fed offmap, if the Fed capital is there, might not then be eligible for Engineers to create minor shipyards, as they must be done at a SB or major planet, of which the sole example is the capital. But if this came up in Q&A, I could see an exception being made for the Feds. Practically speaking, if the Feds have been driven off map, it's probably a done game anyway and doesn't matter if they can or cannot use engineers there.
Rule:
541.32) Limitations: Engineer regiments cannot function
in the capital hex of any race, including all three Gorn and
both Romulan capitals. The exceptions are when being
used as an SAF in an enemy capital, and when picking up
a mobile base.
paul you can of course DO BOTH, build capital shipyard and minor yards in an offmap area by building the minors before the capital is destroyed then building the capital yard in the offmap area. at least that's how I interpret the rules.
this is why its a neutral thing and not pro coalition in my eyes.
Richard, rules are not with me but I think PO has a reference in the Shipyards section which states an Engineer can't be be used to help build a Medium or Major Shipyard.
On the Feds - like the Klingons losing 1411.... I think it's game over - so your right it's not relevant - but perhaps should be clarified..
Jim - it's possible - the Kzinti could lose 1401 prior to FF Shipyards being available (turn 2 to 4).
Hydrans might get a FF Shipyard built - but it isn't impossible they may lose 617 prior to its completion (Start on turn 4 - lose 617 on Coalition turn 5).
As in Ted and Dana's game - 1401 can be captured fairly quickly.
Engineers certainly cannot be used to create medium or full shipyards, that's concrete, yes.
Jim - moved here as Q&A is for questions and formal replies.
By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 02:33 am: Edit
DD and CW yes, DW no. that's how I read it.
On what basis?
450.18 states no other hull types is permitted.
450.4 permits a DD or DW to be sub'd for a CW.
So either 450.18 is incorrect or both would be permitted (with a Minor Shipyard)?
My take is that if it's possible to convert a smaller hull to a larger one (that is the hull that is built in an minor shipyard), then that smaller hull can be built as a substitution for the normal hull in such a shipyard.
So, you can convert a Lyran or Hydran FF to a DW, so a DW shipyard could build such an FF (as a substitution).
You cannot convert a Lyran or Hydran DW to a CW, so a CW shipyard could not build such a DW.
That's my gut feeling as to the intention here.
From CL30 PO AAR:
"There is nothing in (450.12) to stop a Conversion Facility from making a double conversion, nor is there anything stopping you from using (450.4) to produce a Lyran DD in a Lyran CW shipyard. "
CL40 Supplenetal Q&A
"Q: I lost my capital and started building a new one at a favorite vacation spot outside of enemy reach. This spot is already home to some minor shipyards which I built earlier. Minor shipyards cannot be built in a capital hex (759.0). My opponent says that because of this, I must remove them from the new capital. Do I at least get some salvage or a discount on building a new shipyard?
A: While new minor shipyards cannot be built in an existing capital (450.13), there is no rule requiring existing minor shipyards to be removed from a newly selected capital hex. (Indeed, the hex where you built those new shipyards is probably the most logical place for a new capital.) You cannot, however, add more minor shipyards there after the hex is designated as your new capital.
Q: Is there a restriction on the number of minor shipyards or conversion facilities in the off-map area?
A: Only in the sense of what you can pay for (purchase cost and the cost of whatever they build and convert). The off-map area is very big and can support any practical number of these facilities. "
Ryan
Thanks - I haven't got the recent CL's and I can't remember any discussions about changing the rules (which absolutely means they may have happened and I missed it).
So - was there a discussion about changing 'Minor Shipyards' and why was significant changes made?
Change 1 - 450.18 States Sub's to other hull classes can't be done
Change 2 - Multiple minor shipyards can be built as the off map area is big - as only the Kzinti , Lyrans, Hydans and ISC have two legal off map locations (namely a SB or Major Planet).
ie. the Feds with no major planets would have to build a replacement capital at the Off Map SB - thereby under 450.13 (although it refers to a hex), no minor shipyards could be build at that location.
Looking at all these points, I think one aspect which adds to the confusion is we have a single designation of 'Minor Shipyard' which actually covers two different things :-
A) A Slip way for the creation of new ships
B) A Conversion Facility to convert existing ships (and what I read to allow a Slip Way to build a different class of ship)
450.12 even states 'each minor shipyard is built to a specific kind of ship (base hull type' - and allowing CW slip ways to build potentially up to 3 different base hull types, is hardly 'specific'.
I can't be the only one to think Slipways build A Type ships and Conversions yards allow you to amend the type built in the Slipway?
Thanks
Paul,
Change 1 - We will probably add the DD/CW and FF/DW exceptions for the Lyrans. Since in order to build the bigger ship they must build the smaller ship. They are the only empire that does that.
Change 2 - I think the first answer in CL40 answers that. Couldn't add any addidtional minor shipyards to the new capital but any existing can stay and you should be able to finish any started ones.
Where do you get a "allowing CW slipways to build potentially up to 3 different base hull types" from?
The Lyrans only have the ability to downsub in a minor shipyard from the trimaran to the base catamaran.
A Type slip way and a SB would allow the same thing. Build a CW and then convert to NCA.
Ryan;
Option 1; Would the Gorns be able to use this, for their single/double bubble set up?
The Lyrans
DD for a CW and a DW for NCA or CW.
So build a CW slip way - get a choice of 3 different hulls.
Was it decided the Minor Conversion Facility was not required or something - as I can see a reason to build them now (especially with the conversion change being points based rather than a single ship)?
Sorry, I don't get your point about must having to build the smaller ship to get the bigger ship, the Lyrans can direct build a CW or DW - so they don't have to convert anything to get it.
So, still confused/lost!
Paul;
DW not allowed to sub for CW in a minor shipyard. DW is a differnt base hull.
The left/right sponsons of a CW/DW are a DD/FF respectively, which is why this is allowed. A CW yard isn't converting a DD to a CW but it did build all the parts for a DD when it builds the CW.
ADM;
Gorn double bubble ships are to long to fit in the minor shipyard.