Archive through July 12, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through July 12, 2019
It says first add three uncrippled ships. At this point you cannot add anything that is crippled, so you could not add CVS+mec
I am sorry for being unclear, all I meant was that a CVS+mec+MEC+empty would count as two uncrippled ships.
It could be argued that you can't add crippled ships until you're done selecting 0-3 uncrippled ships first, but I don't know which way that Q&A would go (as the rull says first the uncrippled, then the crippled and a carrier group with both wouldn't quite qualify, but the intent may be that you can do it in the example of the CVS group you gave).
You can't do CVS+mec+MEC+empty +CVT though, as that's effectively four uncrippled ships (before adding the cripples).as impled by that four ship carrier gorup example I cited earlier.
OK, now neither one of you are making sense to me.
I dug out my rules, but I do not have the 2010 rulebook. Has the retreat battleforce rules changed in 2010 (over 2000)?
Let me work through my confusion with a different example... I have a CVA group and 3 CVS groups - each with the outer escort crippled.
I first include all cripples. Well that's all four eff... it also says that the carrier groups are included. So, so far I have CVA (2 MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff)
I now include 3 uncrippled ships. But the uncrippled ships from the carrier groups count against that total, and so I already have more than 3.
In the case of a 4-ship carrier group, it notes that it could not be included unless the 4th ship was one of the "additional uncrippled ships", so that implies that you aren't forced to break up carrier groups to fit and form, but that you match them into the battleline as best you can, and count only the final total.
(An example of that would be if I had 7 crippled FF, I could then add a CVA group (4 ships), because the total line would then be CVA (2 MEC, EFF), 7 ff as a legal line. But if I had 8 crippled FF, I could not then add a CVA group as I only have 3 spaces left, so I'd be better adding a DN and a couple of CC or MSC instead.)
But in my hypothetical line, I can't add any additional uncrippled ships, as they were automatically added when I put the cripples on the line, and furthermore, the line isn't legal (too many ships total), so I have to not count the value of some of those ships... and I have to priorities the mandatory cripples over the healthy ones.
So I'd end up with a line of CVA (2 MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), and a further CVS (MEC, eff), but I'd only be able to count the eff in that group for compot purposes. Plus, the CVA would have to withhold half of it's fighters... and I'm not sure if it's legal even then, as the 3rd CVS has fighters, but they're not counted for compot and can't be hit, so they're not really there, right?
So... did I just do this right, or have I misunderstood this process all along? Or alternatively, did it change in F&E2010?
*~*~*~*
But if I did it right, then the same logic is used on William's line. All cripples are included, which automatically includes the carrier groups (assuming he didn't drop any escorts from either group). Then add 3 uncrippled ships... which has already been done with those carrier groups. Then pick a command ship -- so far, the CVS is the best they have of the included ships. Then add any additional uncrippled ships up to the limit of the command rating... which has already been done with those carrier groups. And that fills out the line.
There is no space to add the DN at this point, and even if you could, the CVS has already been designated as the command ship. The line is CVS (mec, MEC, empty), VT (eff, FF), cl, dd, eff.
If you drop the FF from the VT group, you end up with the same line but an empty slot in the VT group.
If you drop the MEC from the CVS group, then the CVS group would only count as three ships, so you'd have space to add one additional uncrippled ship, the DN (but again, the CVS has already been designated as the flagship). So... CVS (mec, empty), VT (eff, FF), cl, dd, eff, DN. Marginally better, but the CVS is toast.
If both the FF and the MEC are dropped, then you'd actually have space to add the DN as one of the original 3 uncrippled ships, and so it could be the flagship. The line then would be DN, CVS (mec, empty), VT (eff, empty), cl, dd, eff, BC. Even better, but either (or even both?) carriers are toast.
Your best bet is skipping the DN altogether, concentrate on protecting your carrier groups, and don't worry about hurting the enemy. Do you have any fighters left for the carrier groups, or are they already dead? Either way, expect this one to hurt.
Turtle, here is the rule:
(307.32) GROUPS: Carrier groups with crippled escorts must be
included (308.12); any uncrippled ships count for the three uncrip-
pled ships. A four-ship group (even with a destroyed escort) can-
not be included unless it has a crippled escort (in which case it
must be) or unless the fourth ship (even if missing) is one of the
“additional uncrippled ships” added. See (308.122) which can
force carrier groups to be broken up to satisy this rule.
This rule states that a 4 ship carrier group of uncrippled ships ccannot be included (as the three uncrippled ships_ even if the 4th slot is empty. It can be included in the case of space for additional uncrippled ships being present.
Kevin:
Ok, you have CVA (2 MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff), CVS (MEC, eff)
It is not possible to include all of the crippled ships by adding all of the carrier groups.
You start by adding all the cripples, this gives you a line as shown above.
Then three of those ships in the groups are allowed to be added. Of these ships, pick a flagship.
Add uncrippled ships )frpm these groups) until you have space for no more.
As your command rating is 10, this gets you 11 ships.
But all the carrier groups (as is) do not fit into the battle force (because of command rating and possibly because of exceeding the three attrition squadron limit), so you rethink the first step (add all the cripples) removing them from carrier groups as necessary until you have a legal battle force that does not violate command rating limits in order to fit in uncrrippled ships.
So, in this example, you could remove the eff from one carrier group, remove half the fighters from the CVA group (for purpose of combat - this assumed all the carriers had all their fighters) and have a line of CVA(1/2 fighters, 2MEC eff) CVS+MEC+eff CVS+MEC+eff eff and it would be legal. This is not the only possible legal combination. You could (for example) instead remove all the crippled escorts and do CVA+2MEC+empty CVS+MEC+empty 4eff if you wanted to for some reason, or some other combination.
Wow, atleast I am not the only person confused 
Taking the original line :-
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
The way my brain at worked it out was
Step 1-
Take all cripples (which at this stage includes the groups they are in)
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
So that is 5 cripples.
Step 2
Add up to 3 uncrippled
That is 4 uncrippled plus 1 'empty slot' (which is a ship slot, so I don't think it counts as crippled, as if that was the only omission or crippled ship in a line, you can't pursue) and therefore would be a uncrippled slot).
Step 3
Flag rating of a CVS is a 9 and therefore the line exceeds the Commanding Rating and so a uncrippled ship would need to be removed (MEC or FF).
So persued line would be either
CVS+mec+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
or
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff, dd, cl, eff
Empty slot can't be the ship removed, as the light escort (or light escort slot) is required to be covered.
So the two questions up for discussion are
1) Is the persued line ship numbers 'Flagship plus Command Rating' or 'Command Rating'
As it is written - I believe it is the latter as 307.31 refers to 'Up to Command Rating of the Flagship' and has no reference to the normal force creation method (Flag+CR+Scout)
2) Are you able to remove uncrippled ships from a group to add other uncrippled ships?
For example, remove the uncrippled MEC from the CVS group and FF from the VT group?
308.122 refers to I believe the compulsory removal/change of groups to make a legal force.
So a force of
CV+MEC+eff, CV+MEC+eff, CV+mec+eff, cl, dd would become CV+MEC+eff, CV+mec+eff, cl, dd, eff - as the former line has more than 3 uncrippled ships (and exceeds Command Rating) and the latter line keeps within both requirements.
Thanks
*I'll take a stab at this (I am not an official answer guy).
Taking the original line :-
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
The way my brain at worked it out was
Step 1-
Take all cripples (which at this stage includes the groups they are in)
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
So that is 5 cripples.
Step 2
Add up to 3 uncrippled
That is 4 uncrippled plus 1 'empty slot' (which is a ship slot, so I don't think it counts as crippled, as if that was the only omission or crippled ship in a line, you can't pursue) and therefore would be a uncrippled slot).
Step 3
Flag rating of a CVS is a 9 and therefore the line exceeds the Commanding Rating and so a uncrippled ship would need to be removed (MEC or FF).
*Exceeding the command rating would mean more ships than the flagship can command. A CVS can command 9 ships so you can have the flagship and the nine ships it commands for 10 total. This is standard. If you think otherwise, I *really* think you need to ask on Q&A before you go ahead with that interpretation in a game.
So persued line would be either
CVS+mec+(empty slot), VT+eff+FF, dd, cl, eff
or
CVS+mec+MEC+(empty slot), VT+eff, dd, cl, eff
Empty slot can't be the ship removed, as the light escort (or light escort slot) is required to be covered.
*The second line has VT+(empty)+eff as a tug with a medium carrier fighter factor size requires two escorts. Only if it has no escorts is it treeated a sa single ship carrier (in which case being a tug-carrier it requires two slots in the battle force).
*Both lines are legal, being allowed 10 ships each due to the CVS flag ship (with the CVS being that 10th ship).
So the two questions up for discussion are
1) Is the persued line ship numbers 'Flagship plus Command Rating' or 'Command Rating'
*The first, flagship plus command rating.
As it is written - I believe it is the latter as 307.31 refers to 'Up to Command Rating of the Flagship' and has no reference to the normal force creation method (Flag+CR+Scout)
*I don't think so. I'd get a Q&A official answer before I used your interpretation in a game.
2) Are you able to remove uncrippled ships from a group to add other uncrippled ships?
*Your question could confuse people. Break it into two parts:
*2A. Are you able to remove uncrippled ships from a group during the pursuit step?
*Yes.
*2B. Can you add other uncrippled ships to a retreating battle force?
*Yes, if there is room after all cripples and the three allowed uncrippled ships are added.
*If you meant 2B: Can I add uncrippled ships to a carrier group during the pursuit step? The answer is no, except for possibly an FCR.
For example, remove the uncrippled MEC from the CVS group and FF from the VT group?
308.122 refers to I believe the compulsory removal/change of groups to make a legal force.
So a force of
CV+MEC+eff, CV+MEC+eff, CV+mec+eff, cl, dd would become CV+MEC+eff, CV+mec+eff, cl, dd, eff - as the former line has more than 3 uncrippled ships (and exceeds Command Rating) and the latter line keeps within both requirements.
Thanks
Thanks Richard
One point - we are playing basic F&E2010 only - so a Tug can either be escorted as normal - or counts as two slots (i.e. CV Tug+Unfilled Slot).
The rules for escorting tugs are the same with full rules. Not sure what you are getting at.
Sorry - hot day in the office and braindead!
Missed you highlighted that point
AFTER DISCUSSIONS WITH FEDS WE WILL SOON BE PURGING THIS TOPIC THROUGH THE END OF 2017.
FEAST
While I approve this time, in future any discussions of what to delete really need to include me.
Approx 1800 posts, good work.
G.O.D.,
We'd have asked after archiving and before deletion.
And before posting a deletion warning.
410.4 and 420.6 - this confused William and I last night.
In brief - we agreed that it seemed logical that a cut off base has fuel, ammo and food to supply itself and ships stacked with it.... but not any crippled Base repair components.
So a base in friendly space, which is cut off - supplies itself and ships stacked with it - but is the hex 'in supply' for the purposes of 420.6?
A base in allied or captured (or Neutral) space, which is cut off - supplies itself but NOT ships stacked with it - but is the hex 'in supply' for the purposes of 420.6?
So which supply definition is relevant to repaid a crippled Base (which also requires a Tug).
A) Linked to Main Supply Grid
B) Within own space and cut off
C) Within Neutral/Enemey/Allied Space and cut off
i.e. A, or A&B or A, B&C?
(Orion supply being possibly needed to bring Ep's etc)
Thanks
Has been answered by Chuck.
Only under A can it be repaired.
Although not required - I would guess the logical answer is local resistance forces bring in sufficient raw materials for the repair - while the Orions (at a price) bring in key components/Repair Crews (i.e. Eps).
Under B & C - the Orions can still bring in key components - the raw materials can't be brought in.
That wasn't Chuck's ruling, it's not only when the SB is linked to the main supply grid.
Quote:In the situation given, the SB can be repaired since:
1. An uncrippled tug is present
2. The tug is in supply via (410.4) since it is stacked with its SB in friendly territory
The situation given was that the SB is in friendly territory, but crippled and in a partial grid.
That means under BOTH A&B of your alternatives the SB may be repaired.
What is odd about this result is that the main grid is paying for repairs to a crippled SB that is cut off from the main grid. But that is the ruling (and the ruling does follow from the exact wording of the rules). Just chock it up to another thing that doesn't make sense unless you just accept that "it's the rule" based on "abstraction".
Sorry Ted - I misread my own points.
It's A & B as you said - at least I stated that in the Game Topic
(I will claim this is also a deliberate training point for all - it's better to misstate points in the Q&A Discussions Topic rather than the Q&A topic, which is for questions and formal replies - it avoids silly mistakes like this happening - So thus ends todays lesson.)
The repair cost though is paid from by the partial grid (420.43)- so Orion Smuggling might be required to fund part of the cost, if there is insufficient Ep's there.
Ah, OK.
So probably an easy question, so not posting it in official questions.
Under (600.2) Scenario Chronology, on T26 it says that the Tholians go to 75% economic exhaustion. I assume that is only if the Tholians actually enter the war on T10, correct?
(i.e. if they are just in play from T22 to T28, they are on a peacetime economy till T22, so no exhaustion in those 7 turns of activity).
Peter:
The Tholian go to 75% economic exhaustion in historical scenarios that begin after Turn #11 of Fall Y173. These historical scenarios must assume that the Coalition attacked and that the Tholians entered the war at that time and that is when their economic clock started ticking.
In other cases, the Tholian economic clock starts ticking whenever they enter the war.
Chuck, thanks for the rulings.
Ok, thanks Chuck!
So in the case where the Tholians are just the 7 turn "limited partners" of the Alliance on T22 through T28, they never hit exhaustion.
Quote:By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 11:25 am: Edit
Q542.16: What is the definition of the term "obsolete types" in this survey ship rule?
Clearly, the Federation CLS and the Hydran SR are "obsolete types" because the last sentence in this rule says so. However, the same sentence leads with "This includes...," hinting at the idea that these two types of units are NON-EXCLUSIVE to the list of "obsolete types?"
One could argue that an "obsolete type" of survey ship is any survey ship for which a given empire has a later YIS SR on their SIT for a given turn within a game. Thus, for example, in Y174 of the General War, the Romulan PE (Y166), SPS (Y170), KRE (Y170), FHC (Y171), FAS (Y171) would all be considered "obsolete typess" of survey ship relative to the FHQ (Y174) and QPE (Y174). However, in Y170, only the PE would be considered "obsolete" relative to the SPS (Y170) and KRE (Y170).
One could argue that a "strict reading" of 542.16 is that ONLY the Federation CLS and Hydran SR are "obsolete types," and thus may never be produced after the start of the General War.
Note there is a ruling that says that conversion is not a valid way to avoiding 542.16. There is a ruling that this rule "is a rule, not a ruling" when I asked about whether the PE is considered an "obsolete type" - but the Q&A did not actually answer the question asked.
I could not find an official answer which defines, absolutely, what "obsolete type" means with respect to 542.16.
Ruling respectfully requested.
The Romulan Hawk series variants would not be considered to be obsolete as the Hawks were designed and put into production before the General War began.
The Romulan PE and KRE along with the Klingon D6E should be considered to be obsolete as the Klingons considered the D6 to be obsolete, even though they kept the D6 in production throughout the General War. The Romulans replaced War Eagles with the Sparrow Hawks with the exception of the Falcon Mauler because the obsolete nature of the War Eagle design.
@Turtle:
/me shrugs.
That's above my pay grade. Honestly, I don't really care what the obsolete survey ship rule ends up meaning, I just want to know what its actual metes and bounds *are*. Right now, it's not clear, and without a ruling it's just argument.
I'll let staff duke it out.
From Q&A:
(Bill Powell)
Hello there. A couple of friends and I are starting a new F&E game. A couple of us haven't played each other in 7 years and the other guy hadn't played at all. I have been playing solo games. The question deals with combat, or damage determination to be specific.
Now for the last 7 years I have been using the Damage index chart that is on the Large hexed map and some of the newer fleet charts that says to add the defender BIR, The attacker BIR, variable BIR, subtract the EW shift, add any other adjustments, and add the die roll. You then use that number to determine which percentage modifier to use on the chart. I've found this very easy to use.
One of the guys that I'm gaming pointed out though that according to rules 302.4 and 304 that this is not how damage is obtained. Rule 302.4 states that both players roll a die after determining the attack factors of their battle force. Any modifiers that apply are taken into account, such as EW shift. Rule 304 then states that both players choose a BIR Between 1 and 4 and then a variable BIR is obtained and added to the total of both players combined BIR.
I guess that my question is where are the rules to support the combat system shown on the Damage index chart. I appreciate any help here. Thank you.