Richard,

I'm not trying to make anything fit anything else, just trying to get an answer to what appears to be a logical inconsistency. I fully agree the ship SHOULD be able to re-devastate the planet. What I am trying to get down to is the HOW it can do it. And right now, the only thing the rules say is that you can re-devastate a planet by using directed damage. Period, full stop. There is no other provision.

If the ship can just "build the damage up over time", then great, that can cover it. And that seems to be the way Chuck is leaning on that question, assuming it's not a multi system hex. I always thought it worked this way, but when I went back and looked at the rules, I couldn't support it.

And FYI, you just created a new damage type. There is no such thing as involuntary damage. The closest you can get is involuntary Minus points, which the rules very specifically how they can be generated. All other damage is voluntary, even if it doesn't seem like it is, as you are always required to resolve all of the damage if possible.

Peter,

The question arose because Ted and I are playing a game, and he sent a single ship to not recapture an already devastated planet, but just to "reset the clock" and then leave it in my possession by retreating after doing so. Which then led me to flip through the rulebook as I am wont to do when bored, and I had this question. At first I thought nothing of it, as I've played umpteen games where stuff like this happened all the time. But then it got me thinking, and I needed to ask the question.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 03:31 pm: Edit

I think he wants it to be a battle hex so that he can retreat over adjacent enemy units.

Ie, it's the K;omgpm tirm. The Klingons have 1202 captured from a previous turn.

In 1001, they have 3 C8s garisonning a captured planet. The Klingons would like to retreat those three C8s to 1102 where there's a long Kzinti SDF (and destroy it). If they can attack 1001, then its a battle hex and they can retreat from it.

Or maybe its something else, I dunno.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Ah, ok. Yeah, so you are asking if a single ship can go to a liberated, already devastated planet, and then redevastate it, and then retreat. Check. I misunderstood.

I think the answer is gonna be unambiguously "yes" :-)

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 03:58 pm: Edit

RBE:

To be clear, the rule states:

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Quote:

(508.214) A devastated planet can be devastated again (by the enemy), which would restart the time period required for recovery. A player cannot voluntarily re-devastate his own planet to absorb damage points.

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By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Richard, nothing so diabolical. Just a simple question of can a single ship do it. The answer is yes, as I thought it should be. And we've moved on.

Of course such a hex would be a battle hex though, why wouldn't it be? It has to be in order to do damage right?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Really Chuck?

Isnn't the whole idea that you can't redevastate a firendly planet voluntarily to prevent a defender from using it to soak damage in the first place?

I mean. I see that the rules *could* imterpreted tje way you say, it just seems to go agianst what I perceived as the meaning for having that rule in the first place.

Otherwise, I'd see people doing it all the time, amnd I've never seen anyone try to take just 9 damage on a friendly devastated planet. (amd 3 more for the RDF). Sorry for any errors in spelling, I can't really see what I'm typing, the font in the typing window is so small.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 05:59 pm: Edit

I agree with Richard, I don't think you want to open that can of worms Chuck. Think you should just leave it at "an undefended devastated planet can be re-devastated and left in the original owners possession". Don't let it soak free damage, that's what the RDF is for.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Hold up, let's look at this

CT#X - planet is captured during the combat phase (devastated) and then retrograded from, liberating the planet (RDU appears)
AT#X - planet is devastated but in friendly hands, produces devastated EP
CT#X+1 - nothing happens
AT#X+1 - planet has one turn of recovery, produces devastated EP
CT#X+2 - enemy FF moves to planet and captures it (RDU destroyed), if not retrograded, is the recovery turn negated or does the planet need to be re-devastated to lose the recovery turn?
AT#X+2 - Planet is not liberated due to enemy reserve showing
CT#X+3 - planet remains captured, becomes part of enemy grid, produces no income
AT#X+3 - nothing happens
CT#X+4 - produces captured EP
AT#X+4 - liberated
CT#X+5 - nothing happens
AT#X+5 - produces devastated EP, one turn of recovery (or is it turn #2?)

The question then becomes, what resets the recovery clock, is capturing the planet enough (no actual additional damage)?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 10:08 pm: Edit

RDF not RDU.

The recovery turns reset when the planet is captured imo.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 12:08 am: Edit

Ref:

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Quote:

(508.21) DEVASTATING: If the planetary defense units (not necessarily including their fighters or PFs, and not including the three-point residual unit which does not exist until a captured planet is liberated or ungarrisoned) are destroyed and an additional ten points of damage are scored on the planet (which can be accumulated over several combat rounds), the planet is "devastated" and its residual defense unit is destroyed. Its economic production is reduced (minors to one point, majors to two) for a period of two years...

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By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 08:35 am: Edit

under the same theory, chuck, can i absorb six damage on a CW without crippling it?

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 09:56 am: Edit

Chuck, just to be clear: If I am defending an undefended planet (no PDU's, no RDU), and the enemy scores 30 pts of damage on me, can I voluntarily take 9 points of damage on the planet and take the other 21 on my fleet?

Or are you simply saying that if the enemy scored only 9 points of damage, I could take that on the planet and still not have it be devastated?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 09:57 am: Edit

@Chris: I think 508.21 rule is different than the CW analogy. 508.21 is explicit about how the rule takes damage. The CW is required to be crippled by 6 points by the operation of 302.6.

So, the analogy does not hold because you have different rules with different wording. You're forced to cripple the CW at 6 points because of the wording of 302.6. The planet is not devastated until 10 total damage is scored, not half values. Another way to say it is that the specific overrules the general.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 10:52 am: Edit

I think a better way of looking at it would be that you are only allowed to take damage on a planet if it CAN be devastated. If it's already been devastated, then as devastation isn't an option for the defender, you cannot accumulate damge toward it.

If you can't do a thing, there's no sense in accumulating damage towards a thing.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 02:13 pm: Edit

I think we have overlooked two rules :-

508.211 - You only need to destroy the RDF to capture a planet (which auto re-devastates it)…

and 508.214.

So either

The attacker kills the RDF and any defenders retreat - planets is devastated and captured

OR

The attacker allocates damage to re-devastate the planet - but then leaves the hex and doesn't capture the planet.

The defender can't allocate damage to either the RDF or re-devastating the planet.

Basically - if the attacker intends to capture the hex - they ignore the devastated planet - if they either don't want to capture the hex (or can't) they devastate the planet.

The defenders only choice is to defend the hex or retreat.

508.211 perhaps does confuse things - the RDF sentence basically should be ignored I think?

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Paul, to capture a planet the attacker also must stay in the hex. So they can't just destroy the RDF and *poof* the planet is captured. They then have to choose to stay in the hex, and THEN it's captured.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>508.211 - You only need to destroy the RDF to capture a planet (which auto re-devastates it)…>>

Well, sort of? Destroying the RDF does not automatically redevastate the planet. Capturing the planet effectively redevesatates the planet, as when the planet is liberated, the recovery clock starts over from 0.

If you can't/won't capture the planet (say, 'cause it is a capital system planet in a capital system you are not going to capture this turn), you still need to do 10 damage to an already devastated planet to reset the recovery clock (i.e. if you go into the Kzinti capital to dedevastate all the non homeworld planets so they don't recover next turn, you need to hit all the planets for 10 damage to redevastate them).

Rob wrote:
>>Paul, to capture a planet the attacker also must stay in the hex.>>

Well, sort of? You can capture a planet and then immediately retreat from the hex. But to do that, the defenders need to have left the hex. (508.22) basically says if a planet has no defenses, is devastated, and there are no defenders in the hex, the planet is captured. This can happen, and then you can immediately retreat from the hex. But there also need to be no defenders in the hex, so you can't do this in a multi-system capital hex even if all the ships are huddling over the homeworld.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Chuck, thank you for the ruling on survey ships. At least for the time being there is a ruling: the rule means ONLY the two listed ships are "obsolete".

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Paul and Peter, keep in mind that you have to kill the RDF first, then fight a second round to re-devastate the planet in question as the attacker. Note, if the defender retreats after the RDF is destroyed, then the attacker can stay saying they are devastating the planet (how many rounds that would actually take) before retreating to reset the recovery clock.

I agree with Peter, that once the planet is devastated the original owning player cannot apply any damage points to it with regards to re-devastation. That seems like a serious violation of the spirit of the rule, if not the letter of the rule.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 10:12 am: Edit

Rob - Q411.31

This issue arose in my game with William - and we agreed as it doesn't distinguish between active/non active fleets/ships, the rule as written would mean an non-active Ship WOULD block/unblock supply (good example being Marquis provinces).

Hope this helps

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 10:57 am: Edit

Paul, I've always played it the exact opposite though as the Alliance. I have never assumed the ships there could open supply. I always would make sure to have released units in the area so I could use them to react and keep supply lines open. It was only on reading the rule again yesterday that I realized that may not be the case, as the rules as written are silent on the matter.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 11:47 am: Edit

A similar issue was raised in QandA years ago and it was established that the Marquise forces could not affect things outside their area.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Richard, I have looked all over for that, because I think I remember it. For the life of me though, I can't find it. I even went to the published Compendiums and did searches for Marquis specifically and came up with nothing. I search for 600.311 (no hits if you can believe that!), 601.12, 411.31 and 411.34. None of them mention this case or anything like it.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I, too, seem to recall a ruling. I, too, cannot find it.

Upon re-reading the rules, I'm going to venture that 411.34 controls. It says "Units... which cannot react do not block (or unblock) supply in an adjacent hex."

Because the Marquis units cannot *react* outside of their zone, they do not block or unblock supply in an adjacent hexside out of their deployment zone. They would do so *inside* their deployment zone."

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Honestly that's the sane thing to do.