The other thing I did was ensure 1105 was firmly in Coalition hands by CT3. Makes a Northern expedition far more difficult.

Looks like he's doing his own version of Operation Lyran Spank (see my game with Dana Madsen where I'm playing Alliance - poorly, I might add).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I feel compelled to comment on the Hydran Expedition.

I think it's a needed part of the game because it compels the Klingons to setup in a certain way - and that is good for game balance.

However, I think *success* of the expedition is bad for the *game*. I have never - not once - seen or even heard of a game when the Coalition carries on to victory after a turn 5 or even turn 6 successful expedition.

In my personal opinion, success of the expedition effectively means Alliance victory. Good game. Start another. You can grind it out if you want to, but the only question is just how badly is the Coalition going to get stomped.

There are very few players I know willing to play a game they know they're going to lose, not when it takes years of real life time to complete it. It also means there's almost no chance you're getting to the really fun late war toys.

Heck, in my last 11 years of play I have yet to make it to X-ships, and only to PFs once. The game either fizzles out due to real life, or victory is achieved early by 3-capital knockout. And that was without the Expedition. The most games I've seen played to the end are by Peter B.

Again, and this is my personal opinion only, early Hydran Expedition success kind of ruins the fun of playing out F&E.

So, if my opponent want to try the Expedition, by all means go for it. However, if by chance you succeed, I will declare the game over with my opponent being victorious over me. The game is already won by the Alliance, it's just a matter of time, so I just pull the trigger early.

So. Why bother trying the expedition at all? Unless you just want a quick game?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Commentary on my commentary: By all means, if you have an experience that proves me wrong on the Hydran expedition I want to know about it! I have an open mind in this regard.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Very few games that have a successful expeiditon even continue significantly past that. I imagine that in some cases victory may still be possible, but no one will know for sure until such a thing happens.

I played a game once when the Coalition hit the Marquise SB on C6. You were in that game Ted. The Coalition were doing pretty badly overall in that one and I don't think they were going to win , they'd been taking a blood bath in the Hydran theatre.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Anywho it's a needed rule, keeps the Coalition honest.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Richard, your two posts seem to make my point - it's needed for the game that it exists, but game ends if it actually succeeds.

I seem to recall that one game you mentioned, yes. It was a bad choice. Not worth the cheap SB.

It might be worth it as an experiment, I suppose, to keep going after a successful expedition. Dunno.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 03:38 pm: Edit

I've only ever attempted the Expedition as a diversionary tactic to tie up 4 to 6 times that same number of Klingon ships, I've never tried to actually do it and get them into Fed space. Honestly adding the Diplomat requirement makes it harder to pull off, as the Coalition can try to assassinate it, and they get a few shots at it.

That being said, a T6 Fed early entry really isn't that much of an Alliance advantage. Sure it gets them a few more ships, and the ability to immediately attack (which is the actual BIG DEAL), but I would think the Klingons could take it and recover if they plan properly. And they should have an easier time of taking 617, so that has to count for something too.

But yeah, most people feel the same way, it's game over. Which is why pretty much every Coalition player sets up against it. Or they setup to lure the Hydran into trying it, but can stop it.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 04:19 pm: Edit

A T6 Fed activation is pretty strong, it lets the Feds better prepare for a Klingon invasion, in particular they can bolster the 7th Fleet SB which otherwise is easy pickings on a turn 7 Klingon attack.

It gets them extra EPs too, as they are freed from the turn 6 peace time economy, being able to save up EPs not spent on new construction.

Quite critically, it relally hurts any turn 10 Coalition joint attack strategy, where the Klingons don't attack the Feds until turn 10, which keeps them restricted to a limited war economy (no survey, limited construction, a lot of restrictions).

It pretty much forces the Klingons to attack if the Feds don't, as otherwise the Feds are going to build up a on if they just bide their time and help the Kzinti (they can strike any easy Klingon targets though).

Just the treat of a turn 6 Fed attack should pull a reserve or two as well as some ships to deal with that, which may help the Kzinti get some breathing room.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 04:34 pm: Edit

(I'm gonna move the Expedition discussion over to General :-)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Single comment on the Expedtion… relevant to this game

"Nah, the Klingons setup in near perfect anti-Expedition formation (Home Fleet in 1413, East Fleet in 1714). West Fleet plus some reinforcements are all on 1013. "

Whats to stop the Hydrans going up the 1416/1516/1615/1715/1814/1914 line?

Western Fleet needs to be covering the southern BATS IMHO to minimise the chance of a successful Expedition as Southern Reserve on it's own isn't quiet enough.

By having to cover this southern route- it removes Coalition ships which ca get to 617 on turn 4 too

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Um. Southern Reserve (at 1615) and East (at 1814) stops that cold.

What were you smoking? \clipart {grin}

Problem with West covering the Southern BATS is that it makes the North Expedition easier to pull off.


But, let's assume for sake of argument that you *CAN* pull it off for this game.

Same result: "GOOD GAME, WANT ANOTHER?"

So, again, I ask - what is the point?

I mean, if you focus so hard on the Expedition and succeed - aren't you really just starting over again? What's the point?

Indeed, you had that problem when you played me - specifically. You managed to succeed in the Expedition... and the game ended.

Boring. At least to me. But if it's your cup of tea, knock yourself out!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 06:11 pm: Edit

I think the issue is a strong coalition early on basically is the reverse of the above - the Alliance never gets to have 'fun'.

The Alliance gets pushed so far behind the curve, they never catch up.

Yes - Eastern Fleet can be in 1813/2014 but, the Hydrans still might sneak though - or get close enough to draw a lot of Coalition hulls in to pin them.

Which does lead onto the other points raised - if people don't like the crap shoot option of a successful expedition - what Klingon disposition rule would balance it?

Split West - half in 1013 and half in 1417?
Eastern is split in 3 - 1/3 covers the Kzinti and 1/3rd goes on each of 1813/1814?

75% of Home goes in 1413?

Would both sides be happy?

Beginner players might well be - as it reduces the chance of silly errors.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 08:24 am: Edit

Some of us have "fun" playing the bad position and trying to make the best of it

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 09:21 am: Edit

Well, part of the problem with the Alliance having "fun" in the way you speak of it is that the game does not go long enough. The Alliance doesn't get to beat up on the Coalition in a serious way until mid-end game.

In my experience the Coalition wins early (turns 15-24) or will *usually* lose. Not always. Looks like Coalition might make the long game in Peter Bakija's current game.

Then, of course, there's Rob's point. It's also fun to play underdog under the right circumstances.

If you want to be the one doing the beating, then play Coalition more often!

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 03:49 pm: Edit

AT3 has come and gone, and a LOT happened during this Alliance turn.

In the ZTO, battles raged across occupied Kzinti space, including a few battles in Klingon territory! The Coalition forces were deployed more Westward, giving the Kzinti High Command an opportunity to strike deep into Klingon territory, including at the NR SB itself! Reserves were only lightly set in the theatre, due to the fear of a Hydran attack. These two factors worked in the Kzinti's advantage.

The Kzinti attacked Major Planet 1502, Minor planet 1005, Minor planet 1506, Klingon Battlestation 1507 and the NR SB at 1509. Also a small Klingon squadron was attacked in sector 1702.

After a season of combat, all three planets were liberated, the Battlestation in sector 1507 was destroyed and the Klingon squadron in sector 1702 was driven back. The SB was saved by the lone Klingon reserve in the theatre.

Kzinti forces then reconsolidated to defend the Homeworlds, and placed a small fleet on the SB in sector 1304. A small frigate squadron was sent to planet 1504 to interrupt Klingon supply chains. Two moderate reserves were established in the Barony. Due to the nature of the assaults, only a handful of ships could be spared for reserve duty.

In the HTO the Hydrans stormed across the Lyran southern border, assaulting both Battlestations in Sectors 212 and 413, as well as the Starbase in sector 411. An assault on the Battlestation in Sector 109 was considered, but it was a sector too far for Hydran High Command.

Both Battlestations were destroyed for the loss of a single Lancer DD and a few cripples. The real prize was the SB in Sector 411. After seven round of greuling combat, the Starbase was vaporized by concentrated hellbore fire, but it came at a high price. Several Hydran Command and Heavy cruisers were lost in the battle. The defending Lyran fleet was decimated, but only took a few hull losses, including both auxiliary warships stationed at the Starbase.

The Hydrans then consolidated their forces mainly over the Starbase in Sector 716 and at the Homeworlds. Small fleets are defending the Starbases in Sectors 215 and 1017. A weak reserve was established in the Capital, and the OC Squadron is being mobilized as a second reserve, with a few elements from the Home Fleet to help fill it out.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Alliance Dead: CLD, FKE, 2xLB, LM, 2xRN, HR, LN, HNG
Alliance Crippled: KN, CU, 2xHN

Coalition Dead: L-SB, 2xL-BATS, K-BATS, 2xE3 (1 captured), DW, DWS, FLG, 2xFF, FHL, SAV
Coaliotion Crippled: CA, CF, 8xCL, 4xDD, FF

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Lots of work for the Lyran depot I see.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Rob forgot to mention that I had laid a very clever trap for him in the ZTO. Which prompted that whole question about unreleased ships blocking supply in hexes outside their deployment zone.

Had I been right, I could have cut off more than half the Zin fleet from retrograding to 1401. The capital would have gone down on the cheap, and it would probably have been game-set-match.

Even Rob thought it was a good trap. But, alas. I had setup with the trap in mind, but it didn't work out.

In the HTO my strategy to underdefend 411 was quite deliberate. I wanted him to come in so I could bag those valuable Hydran cruisers.

CT4 coming up. It, too, promises lots of pow-pow!

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 07:58 pm: Edit

I was leaving that for you Ted

Had those ships been able to block supply, it would not have resulted in my deep striking ships being cut off from 1401. You just would have gotten either 1504 or 1304 for free.

Which would have sucked, but I did have a way to keep the retrograde path open. Took me a while to find it though. It was a well laid trap.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Yeah. Too bad it was illegal.

Cost me a BATS, though. Ah well.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 12:09 am: Edit

To avoid confusion, unless there's been some ruling to the contrary, a strict reading of the rules seems to say that ships in inactive areas do not open supply (outside of their area) as they cannot react (to units outside their area).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 03:19 am: Edit

So, Ted are you just really evil - or is Rob just unlucky?

…..

Dead 2 x E3 (1 Captured)

Is there a worst hull to capture in the game (accepting generally to capture something is better than not capturing anything!)? ……….

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 08:48 am: Edit

Richard, there has been no such ruling we can find. This was a case of the inactive ships being about to CUT supply, not open it. The same idea should apply though (they can't react into the hex to block it, yadda yadda).

Paul, when it comes to ship captures and depot rolls, the dice tend to hate me. I capture next to nothing, and when I do grab something, it's never that mauler I bagged in pursuit with a G helping out. NO, it's something like a stupid E3 that I literally can't give away. And my depot rolls? If I have a ship I WANT dead, trust me that bastard will make the Depot. Guaranteed. The FH is my case and point. At least that sucker making the depot means I can turn it back into a FF for free.

And yeah, a captured E3 can't be scrapped (it's literally worth 0), costs more to convert for use than it's worth (3 EPs plus 1 more to fix it up, versus a build cost of 2) and then even if I wanted to actually use that flaming hot turd, it would cost me 2 EPs to convert it into the only thing it can be, an E3A. SO yeah, I'm either going to scuttle it, or fly it into the WYN to sell it. Just not sure if I want to waste my ship sales ability on such a POS.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 10:20 am: Edit

@Paul Howard. Is it necessary I only pick one? .

About the only thing a captured E3 is good for is to give it up for a +1 to the roll on the next combat round. However, this was a 1-round battle! Heh. Rob already pontificated on the felicitous joy of capturing an E3.

I have no doubt that Rob just scuttled the Piece of ****.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 10:22 am: Edit

Thinking on it, there is ONE more use for a captured E3. You can keep it, without repairing it, with the intent of offering it up as a sac for a picket force. You could, say, occupy a province with it and cost the Coalition an EP or 2. That's probably it's best use at this point.