Personally, I think ships in depot do count. I would argue that the rules require it. Cripples count (the rules don't say don't count crippled ships when counting for VP purposes), so therefore ships in the depot ships do count. In a sense, they are just crippled ships in the process of being repaired.

I do not understand the proposition that ships in depot are "not ships" until they complete the process.

As for the uncompleted B-10: I would argue it's a ship once it can be used for emergency capital defense.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 16, 2019 - 05:23 pm: Edit

I think depot ships should count as crippled ships unless explicitly stated otherwise within the scenario rules.

Agree with Ted on the B10 under construction.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, December 16, 2019 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Depot ships count under crippled ships, B10 when it can be used for emergency capital defense.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, December 16, 2019 - 09:37 pm: Edit

603.3 doesn't make a distinction between ships and crippled ships.

(603.3) except:

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Then take the total number of ships (not including non-ship
units), divide by five, and add this to the total.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 16, 2019 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Some other scenarios may or might in the future. In a case as you state above, then depot ships are treated the same as crippled ships (which are treated the same as uncrippled ships).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, December 17, 2019 - 02:54 am: Edit

Seems my writing skills failed me....

A B10 up to 15 hull points shouldn't count (as it can't do anything) but a 16 hull point B10 can be used in the Emergency roll and so does become a Ship at that point

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, December 17, 2019 - 06:12 am: Edit

Richard, as far as I can recall (603.U3) Hurricane (Updated), (675.0) Maelstorm, (617.0) Winds of Fire, (608.0) Gale Force all say to use (603.3) when playing the full scenario, if not playing the full scenario, then to use the victory conditions listed in the given sector(s) being played.

Peter's game ending is what made me think of my original question in the Q&A about them.

I support Paul Howard's assertion that if the B-10 can be used in an emergency situation as described in the rules (436.33), then it should count as a ship as well.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, December 17, 2019 - 06:17 am: Edit

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By Jeffrey Coutu (Jtc) on Tuesday, December 17, 2019 - 05:20 am: Edit

Q534.0: The E&S mission to damage a carrier/PFT (534.224) indicates that it is the only PT attack allowed against a carrier or PFT [hereafter I refer this this as the “(534.224) restriction”]. A ruling in Captain’s Log #53 (page 112) now allows the E&S mission to cripple a ship (534.223) to target an unescorted carrier or PFT. That made me wonder if any other missions should be made an exception to the (534.224) restriction.

I think the following three missions are the only other missions that might be effected by the (534.224) restriction:
(534.214) Disrupt Reaction Movement
(534.244) Rescue a captured ship
(534.245) Hijack an enemy ship

Clearly (534.214) can effect at least some carriers and PFTs since the rule indicates that fighters and PFs on the targeted warships are included in the attack factor limit of this mission but I do not know what limits (if any) there are to this.

I would think that (534.244) and (534.245) would allow unescorted carrier or PFT to be targeted but not an escorted carrier or PFT.

Can carriers and PFTs be affected by missions (534.214), (534.244), and (534.245), and if so what restrictions are there?

Are any other E&S missions effected by the (534.224) restriction?

Thanks.

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By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, December 17, 2019 - 09:02 am: Edit

OK so my 2 cents.

For 534.214, it's not so much that the carrier itself is the target, more along the lines of the infrastructure that allows reaction movement, it just has a Compot cap to make it reasonable. 9 times out of 10 you'll not want to use this missing on a carrier anyway, as by itself it probably already hits the cap, or close enough you can't stop a second ship.

534.244: Remember that a captured carrier cannot be escorted by the capturing race until it gets converted to their tech. So this mission should remain 100% legal.

534.245: This is the one I can see the group making a difference, since you should not be able to hijack the ship from the middle of the group. Besides, you should be stealing MAULERS

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Imported from Q&A:

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By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 25, 2019 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Ted Fay, my reading of the rules leads me to believe the answer is "no".

304.5 does not require the attacker be at a BIR of 4 at any time, nor does it specify that the four rounds are consecutive as opposed to cumulative. I assume consecutive and will ask the question formally.

512.2 does not prohibit the Tholians from alternating between including and excluding the base/planet provided the ship count is satisfied which would affect the consecutive count but not the cumulative count. I will ask if they can alternate the base/planet inclusion.

512.5 is specific leading me to my opined answer.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I’ll look into this later.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 10:48 am: Edit

Copied from Q&A (as several relevant answers are required) - never having captured a Carrier before, it hasn't come up.

Sorry - pretty urgent question.

How do Captured Ships (305.0), Form (308.74), Groups (307.32) and Persuit (307.0) interact?

Probably best to give the current situation.

A Kzinti CVS+CLE group fought in combat and was killed - with the CVS being captured.

Coalition then attempt to retreat (and are caught).

We are fairly certain that 308.74 (assuming the captured and not-converted CVS remains as a 'Carrier' Group until a new Carrier Formation step occurs) that 308.74 applies, so it can't go in form, but we might be wrong?

Does the crippled CVS count as 1, 2 or 3 ships for command purposes in the persued force and so does the empty slots count as 1 or 2 of the permitted uncrippled ships, or 1 or 2 of any additional permitted ships or 1 or 2 of the permitted force compot total?

Example 2 of 308.122 confirms uncrippled ships can be removed, but which 'slot' the empty escort slots take up is relevant.

The persued force would like to be (lower case are crippled) : -

Lyran bc(F), Kzinti captured cvs, FV+e4a+E4, D6D, 3 x cw.

There are 3 other crippled ships in the perused force, which can be directed on, but do not contribute compot.

So, persued force has
All crippled Ships
3 Uncrippled Ships
3 rather than 5 crippled cw ships included for compot purposes.


As I am asking several questions, three other questions might has well be asked for clarity

Does a captured (but not yet repaired) Carrier retain the ship designation of 'being a carrier'?

Does a captured Carrier retain the status of how many escorts it had prior to being captured?*

* - With an additional question, what happens if a permitted Single Ship Carrier (which may or may not have been escorted) is captured - does the immediate situation (prior to forming new carrier groups) continue - i.e. If a Romulan SUP or Federation CVL is escorted in battle and dies and is captured - how does the capturing player treat it in any pursued force?

Can a captured Carrier be included in a new carrier group in a different battle, prior to it being repaired and converted (so for example, if the Lyrans capture a Kzinti CVS, prior to it being repaired and converted, could Lyran escorts be used to help protect it in future battles)?

We are not playing with FCR's - but a relevant question would also be - if Carrier was captured, could a FCR be used to escort it in the current battle (normal battle or persued battle)?

Sorry for so many related questions.

Thank you

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Your captured CVS has no escorts. You could probably assign it an FCR as an emergency escort if you have one.

Single ship carriers can use the formation bonus.

Other carriers cannot, even if unescorted, even if never escorted.

This was in a Q&A some number of years ago of which I was involved.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 12:55 pm: Edit

REFERENCES:

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(305.23) OPTION 3: The player can hold it out of combat and subsequently return it to one of his bases (305.3), where it will be repaired and refitted for use in combat. It is replaced by one of the “Ship #” markers and uses its former factors for combat purposes. The empire which captured the ship must perform a conversion costing three EPs before using the ship in combat. This installs weapons and other systems compatible with the empire that captured the ship.

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(305.25) OPTION 5: The captured ship can be included in the Battle Force at its current (crippled) factors and would be treated as any other unit of the capturing player with one exception: the original owner could re-capture it by expending Damage Points equal to three times its original uncrippled defense factor, even if it has the formation bonus.

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By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 01:12 pm: Edit

What about troop ships?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 01:23 pm: Edit

Thanks - the answers the main question, but doesn't answer about the 'missing escort' requirements i.e. does the missing escorts count as

1) One (or more) of the three permitted Uncrippled Ships
2) One (or more) of any additional permitted ships (where 3 uncrippled+crippled ships is less than the Flag ships Command Rating)
3) One of the battle force slots (so in a pursuit battles takes the compot 'slot' of a cripple ships)

My gut feeling is 3 would always apply, but 2 would be applied if additional ships could be added.

- as what would happen (yes it's an extreme) if there was 3 crippled CVA's with no escorts for example - you would have 9 'empty escort' slots to fill and therefore an illegal pursuit force.

Under 3 - the empty slots just mean '0 compot' for each empty slot.

Thanks

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Sounds like Paul just got a windfall actually. No escort slots on it, so it can go into formation bonus.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Captured ships are simply crippled ships which can only use their crippled combat factor -- no special capabilities including carriers and troop ships just to name a few. They cannot host escorts of the capturing empire nor do they take-up extra command slots except for themselves.

Captured carriers must perform a conversion costing three EPs before using the ship in combat PLUS they must pay for their fighters added. When the captured carrier conversion is complete where "weapons and other systems compatible with the converting empire" are added, THEN it can also be escorted and is given its capturing empire's carrier command slots. Until then, they're simply treated as a captured enemy warship with a crippled combat factor with NO special abilities. IOW, if captured carrier cannot operate fighters or host escorts, then they also don't have escort slots to fill -- either their a carrier or they are not.

The same applies to captured troop ships.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Carriers normally cannot use the formation bonus.

Is this the case in this Kzinti CV captured by the Coalition?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Hey Chuck, should this be noted as being '(305.40) During Transport' ??

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 08:33 pm: Edit

RBE:

A captured carrier is simply a ship with a crippled combat factor — it is not a carrier for the capturing player until converted — we can’t have it both ways — either it continues to be a carrier that must escorted and receives fighters even if crippled or its simply a ship with a crippled compot that can use a form slot.

Unless there is some other ruling elsewhere, then that is the way the rules read. Is there something I’m missing?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I don't know if it matters but there was a ruling that a non-single ship carrier cannot use the formation bonus, even if it has no escorts (even if it was never assigned escorts).

This came up some years ago.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I need someone to find this please.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 10:17 pm: Edit

The other problem as noted is that a CAPTURED carrier does not have the carrier command and control "systems compatible with the converting empire" (305.25) until it is converted. We cannot have a double standard where a captured carrier is treated as a friendly carrier for command slots but cannot be escorted or receive fighters even as a crippled carrier.

Remember also; the 3EPs to covert the captured carrier can be used to convert the captured ship to a friendly carrier (plus the cost of the fighters) or a base-hull ship.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 12:45 am: Edit

Doesn't the 3 ep cost make a lot of smaller ships captured not worth the cost to convert?

I mean, sure you'll convert that CVS. But a captured E4?