However, when built it does not count against the carrier limits. Any other real carrier if that is the case will also show as being a specific carrier type AND have an exemption of not counting against carrier limits. The Fed CLV comes to mind, as it is listed as a Medium Carrier but activating it does not count against overall CV limits.

Maybe read the conversations from 2004? There was a lot of debate about it and it landed on "it's a single ship carrier, but cannot be escorted unless you convert it into a B10V". And making it a B10V counts against CVA limits.

Personally I'd be happy to see my opponent escort the B10. Once they do that, it's no better than a trio of Lyran DNs (actually a bit worse). Though I suppose you could just use a single escort, then it's a bit better than 2 Lyran DNs.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 10:10 am: Edit

Rob wrote:
>>Maybe read the conversations from 2004? There was a lot of debate about it and it landed on "it's a single ship carrier, but cannot be escorted unless you convert it into a B10V". And making it a B10V counts against CVA limits. >>

The 2004 discussion was before the 2K10 rulebook was published. The SIT in the 2K10 rulebook (the most recent rulebook for the game) clearly says that the B10 is a single ship carrier (i.e the line for the B10 in the Klingon 2K10 SIT says "Single ship carrier").

The online SIT does not, currently, say that, for reasons I don't understand (probably an oversight?). The designer of the game said the ship was a single ship carrier. It all seems pretty straight forward here.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 11:37 am: Edit

Just because the designer, the SIT and the rulebook all say it? You are so easy to convince Peter.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 12:51 pm: Edit

It doesn't say it can't be escorted, not sure what you mean Alan.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 01:16 pm: Edit

(I'm pretty sure Alan was being humorous; i.e. "Man, you are very unreasonable with being convinced by all those definitive references...". Comedy: Explained!)

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Well consider this. A Single Ship Carrier is only escortable IF it has a classification as a type of carrier. Per the rules:

---

Quote:

515.421: "If they are assigned escorts, they are assigned a number of escorts based on their category (heavy, medium, or light) as defined in (515.2) on the Ship Information Table."

---

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 02:28 pm: Edit

>>Therefore I would conclude that any Battleship cannot be escorted as it's base hull, it needs to be a carrier variant.>>

The B10 is a single ship carrier (as the 2K10 SIT says "Single Ship Carrier"; there is currently a notation in the Klingon online SIT that says "the B10 should be listed in the online SIT as a Single Ship Carrier", so which SVC replied "Correct").

Single ship carriers can be escorted or not (515.42).

The rules on carriers and escorts specifically define carrier sizes based on the number of fighter factors (i.e. a ship that has 4 fighters is a Light Carrier, and can have 1 or 2 escorts if escorted).

This is all very cut and dry.

I think it is more likely that there is just inconsistency in how the SIT is notated, rather than there is an intention to prevent you from escorting a fighter carrying BB, as they are clearly single ship carriers, and single ship carriers clearly can be escorted or not at your option.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Correct, the rules define that the ship can be escorted and (technically) no note is needed.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 03:39 pm: Edit

OK, fair enough. Though every other Single Ship carrier has a category, with the sole exception of Battleships in general.

Would it really be considered a Light Carrier though? I mean if the Kzinti CVL and Federation CVL are both considered Medium Carriers (and are a third of the size of a B10), I could see it being considered a Medium Carrier and not a Light Carrier. I would note that the category based on the number of fighters carried is more of a guideline than a rule, since the SIT is what really determines the carrier size in the end.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 03:58 pm: Edit

two things

SVC has confirmed what it is (so half the debate is mute) - it's a Single Ship Carrier and by Fighter definition can be escorted as a Light Carrier.

We need to be careful saying the 'the rules say this or say that' - as clearly, not all rule books are the same

Hence why we ask questions!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Well, the "rules" include the SITS. The SITS say the the Kzinti CVL and Fed CVL are "medium" carriers, even though they have only 4 fighters. The *text* rules say that most carriers with 4 fighters are light carriers, but there are exceptions.

Thus, it is entirely appropriate to clarify whether a B10 with 4 fighters is a (i) SSC that *may* be (ii) escorted as a light carrier or (iii) as a medium carrier.

SVC clarified (i). Now we want to make sure whether it is (ii), (iii), or (iv) (some other rule) that applies to escorting the B10.


[EDIT] Possibilities for (iv) include:
-The B10 is a SSC that may not be escorted.
-The B10 is a SSC that may be escorted, but if escorted must be escorted as a heavy carrier, owing to its size and importance.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 06:24 pm: Edit

It is not necessary really to 'clarify' a unit uses a standard rule, but rather clarification is necessary when a unit DOESN'T use the standard rule.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 06:35 pm: Edit

I suggest no more than 10 escorts be allowed. If you don't put two SFGs on it, 10 escorts should be required.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 07:00 pm: Edit

I think 10 escorts is excessive. I might see 9, so you can count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 B10.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 08:54 pm: Edit

"...Kzinti CVL and Fed CVL..."

DOCTRINE

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 09:04 pm: Edit

If you are really worried, escort the B10 with another B10. The second B10 will be escorted by the first... ;)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Lyran CV follows doctrine too, and the Hydran CV changes categories after a while due to doctrine.

It happens to some carriers if there is a specific rule for it, but otherwise not.

***

Note that B10s cannot be adhoc escorts.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 02:28 am: Edit

Richard raises a good reminder - the rules apply to everything....unless an exception applies.

In most games, it's probably not relevant (as the B10 will become a B10V) - but in the basic game, it can only be a standard B10.

And the reason why I raised it was my printed copy of the rules didn't state if it was a SSC (as the general rule of it being a light carrier applies) - nor did the on line SIT.

Which has been answered

What can we move onto?

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 03:38 am: Edit

Let’s dig into this two sets of rules thing since it’s not the first time we are hearing about it and it is confusing.

Is your version the most current revision or least current revision?
Is a more current version or revision available on the cart?

One last thing, the use of the term ‘vanilla’ F&E should be banned as anyone using that term clearly doesn’t understand the power of vanilla as a flavor.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 07:45 am: Edit

Lawrence - will check when I get home

My guess would be 2010 - first version.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 09:53 am: Edit

I have a GREAT idea.

New unit: The B10E. 19-20(4)/10. Serves as an escort to the B10VV.

I also have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 11:08 am: Edit

I think we can schedule the B10E for publication about 3.5 months from now.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 11:23 am: Edit

Yay! My very own ship idea published!

j/k

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I think it's scheduled between the local bar doing 'Free Beer Tomorrow' and that Nigerian Prince I am helping to get $50 million out of his country.



On rules - my version has "Federation & Empire 2010 - Copyright C 2010 Amarillo Design Bureau, Inc" at the bottom of each page - Klingon SIT starts on page 201 and back/last page is 218.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Well, here's what happens.

The online SITs are THE SITs.

When we did 2010 we copied them, deleted the stuff not in the core product, and used those, so they're identical.

Except that (obviously) at some point some staffer sent me an email saying "add this note" and I added it to 2010 and meant to (later) go add it to the online SITs. I checked and it's not there, so I updated the Klingon SIT and will post it when I have reviewed the rest of this topic.