Seems like you can choose any BIR (up to 4) for the Tholian base, any BIR (up to 4) for the attacking ships not in the web, and BIR 4 for the attacking ships in the web. After four turns, the same process +1, etc. What is the confusion?

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, February 13, 2020 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Also Steve 10 escorts because SFB, like any better amplifier, goes to B11.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 13, 2020 - 07:53 pm: Edit

'Attacking' ships not in the web do not provide compot, they don't get to pick a BIR.

Clearly if you want to attack when there is a Tholian web, you have to go into the web and auto select BIR4.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 02:24 am: Edit

Richard, the rules say "(512.311) Those not in the web have an attack strength of zero, but are attacked by Directed Damage at 3-1.". To determine how much damage might be used for DD a BIR is required, therefore they must choose a BIR.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 09:29 am: Edit

There is no rule saying that part of the battle force is calculated at a different BIR. In SFB terms, to tow a ship out of a strength 35 web or whatnot, you're going to have to be adjacent to the web and at close range to Tholian units.

This would, imo, preclude any BIR other than 4.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 09:54 am: Edit

In any case, the defender's damage can not be calculated without new (non existing rules) if there are two attacker BIRs involved.

Consider, if the ships stuck in the web are at (hypothetically) BIR 4 + 4 = 8 and the ones outside the web are at 1 + 4 = 5, then how do you calculate total Tholian damage?

If the Tholians roll a 2 (for arrgument's sake) on 200 compot, do they add the 2 to the 5 or the 8? We don't even know if the Tholians are directing, or on what, yet. This makes no sense.

As the rules stand, obviously the entire attacking force is at BIR 4 if they want to enter the web.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Wild SWACs anyone? I believe they modify the BIR for selected units. There may be other F&E systems as well. The point is moot here, but I did quote the rule.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Wild SWACS do not have the same effect. They do not require a change in BIR on different targets in a battle force such as is being suggested above for Tholian web. See my example above showing that it is impossible to implement web the way it is suggested above.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Unless overruled by ADB, when attacking units protected by web the defending player chooses his BIR and the attacker is set at 4 under rule (512.5). It matters not that some units remain outside of the web as that is how the rule is written and there is nothing to interpret.

FEDS SENDS

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 12:22 pm: Edit

@Alan Trevor:

Thank you for your input on the pinwheel question. It's been literally decades since I played a pinwheel in SFB, so your detail on SFB is appreciated.

Just FYI, over here in F&E we keep all discussions of the posted questions in this thread. That way, the reviewers don't have to dive through a lot of commentary when reviewing questions on the official Q&A thread.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Tholian Pinwheels is a Specific Rule - not a general rule.

It would appear when the Multiple Bases rule was introduced the Tholian Pin Wheel was overlooked - and the main rule should have excluded temporary bases (which at the time of writing is Tholian Pinwheels etc....)

Therefore : -

To reiterate, here are the two possible answers as I see them.

1) Pinwheels at a Tholian base do not use the "multiple base" rules under 302.2122. The Tholians effectively get a large defpot bonus while fighting alongside the PDUs/SB.

2) Pinwheels at a Tholian base *do* use the "multiple base" rules under 302.2122. The Tholians *can* form pinwheels, but if the Tholian does so, then the Coalition can make the pinwheel the "focus of the attack", and thereby blunt the compot of the PDUs/SB.

Interpretastion 1 is correct.

From game point of view - if interpretation 2 was used, it would weaken the Tholians even more - and turn a speed bump into a mole hill.

It's not as if the Tholians will survive if attacked?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 01:53 pm: Edit

As the rules stand, does it not actually say to treat the pinweel as a base (for combat)?

If there are no unresolvable rules conflicts, then you treat it as a base, so it can be the focus and so and and so forth.

Honestly though, I don't want to read all the little bits and pieces atm as my vision is not being friendly to this purpose right now, so perhaps that's just too simple a solution for the case in point.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Actually, the rules do literally say to treat the pinwheel as a base. What is NOT clear or defined is whether the pinwheel should be treated as a convoy, etc (i.e., "with the base", don't use the "multiple bases" rule) or as an actual base (pick a base to attack and the rest are "distant").

@Paul, actually, it's the other way around relative to Tholian strength. Ruling that pinwheels can be used at bases *increases* the original Tholian damage absorption strength by about 25%.

Under the original rules, as written, basically you couldn't take advantage of the 50% defpot pinwheel bonus if you self crippled or self killed. Because the rule changed in 2011, Tholians can take MORE damage than they could before (a lot more).

Ruling that the pinwheels have to be treated like other bases under 302.2122 will blunt that new advantage somewhat.

Anyway, the real issue here is unintended consequences with rules interactions with the F&E2010 and later rulings on Tholians. Note that other rules changed 100% outright, like 512.33, which explicitly says that scouts in the battle force but not in the web can use their EW factors. There was a later ruling that reversed this: Scouts must now be in the web to use the EW factors.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the Tholia rules are *old* and need to be updated in view of F&E2010 multiple base rules, and the rulings on pinwheels and EW.

Most games, this doesn't matter. I've been one of the few Coalition players crazy enough to actually assault the Tholians to see what happens! So I actually put these rules to the test in real play.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 03:36 pm: Edit

As an aside, I'm kind of proud of the fact that my past adventures in the Holdfast generated a bunch of these rules changes.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, February 17, 2020 - 05:02 pm: Edit

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Quote:

(322.13) Co-location: Pinwheels can be formed in the same location as a Tholian base and would be inside the web of that base, if there is one.

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 10:22 am: Edit

Question on the Sequence of Play (this is not official Q&A but rather discussion): I've heard a "rumor" that the sequence of play might be updated so that economic checks for ADS (or regular borrowing) will are made only at the end of certain phases (i.e., operational, end of combat phase, etc.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, when might we expect to see an update to the SoP?

It would be nice to see the economics simplified rather than checking my ADS status every instant in the SoP when I need to borrow another EP (or even get stopped from borrowing because I *temporarily* hit a borrowing limit).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 12:10 pm: Edit

@Alan Trevor,

Please note that all Q&A discussions (as opposed to actual on-point arguments or questions) are placed over here in this thread.

Over in Q&A you asked about how you use DB against an entrenched Tholian, from a SFB perspective.

The answer is probably "DOCTRINE". Which is the short-had way of saying, "because the game designer wants it to work like this for balance reasons".

In SFB DB would be ineffective, but for the use of IIIXX wild boar drones, as eventually they would accumulate and make it through the web - and then only at the very end of the battle (when the inner web strength is reduced to 20 or less).

Note also that F&E explicitly allows "special attack forces" which explicitly have "suicide freighters and troop ships" to penetrate the web and attack the SB and/or the planetary defenses. Which, of course, begs the question on how a freighter could penetrate the web, but a mauler or other ship could not.

But that is precisely how it works in F&E. If that doesn't make sense to you, welcome to the club. The answer usually will boil down to "F&E is an abstraction," and if that isn't good enough, then the answer will be "DOCTRINE."

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Ted,

Thanks. And sorry about putting my comments and questions in the wrong topic.

I'm not convinced that in SFB even IIIXX drones will get through the web, if the Tholian defenses are adequate. There are so many games the Tholians can play in wedding cake defense, and far fewer ways for a (non-Andromedan)^* attacker to counter them. But "abstraction" and "Doctrine" probably suffice at the F&E level.


^*For my money, the Andros are a much scarier opponent for assaulting a wedding cake than are the Seltorians. But a discussion of "why" should go in the SFB topic.

By Rob Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Clearly the Drones, just like the Suicide Freighters, are coated in Butter. This allows them to "slip" through the Web with ease. Maybe sense right????

Warships *could* also be Butter coated, but all the phaser fire and the shield energies tend to make it evaporate very quickly! So it's just not as cost effective.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Quick Answer: Drone Bombardment is resourced upon announcement of battle forces.

Players cannot "plan" for salvage EPs from an upcoming battle as there might not be any generated; they must have the DB resources available at the time battle forces are revealed.

FEDS will update the SoP to clarify this.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 02:30 pm: Edit

FYI

From the SoP:

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Quote:

5-6X8: Determine if any eligible ship casualties can enter DLR system (424.33); otherwise determine and record salvage for destroyed units (439.1) if eligible.

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By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Chuck, please forgive my being dense or pedantic.

When you say Drone Bombardment is resourced upon announcement of battle forces, I interpret that as at the moment the current battle force is declared there must either be sufficient funds currently available in the treasury (including any salvage collected from past combat rounds) or sufficient borrowing capacity available IAW (F&E430.6), or (PO447.0) whichever is in use. Is this correct?

FYI to all, I am getting into the habit of preceding rules numbers with a brief notation where I'm reading the rule so others may more easily follow along in their own rule books. I will not complain if others don't do the same, but will appreciate it when others do. It's just a suggestion to help navigate eight rule books.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 09:56 pm: Edit

John, in regards to your question, the DB units must be supplied via Mission U (509.1-U) or be in supply and have funds available either as a positive balance or sufficient borrowing capacity.

Note that the current phase's salvage is not applied to a given empire's calculation of allowed deficit spending under (430.6) or (447.0).

Thus if the empire in question is already at the maximum deficit spending allowed they cannot use drone bombardment (309.0) unless the drone bombardment factors are provided by (509.1-U).

NOTE: (509.1-U) requires that the drone bombardment factors be paid for at the time of the mission assignment. The number of factors paid for and assigned to a given tug or tugs must be kept track of. This is similar to (509.1-H) for EPs on a given tug to transport to an allied capital under (435.2) or to the WYN for WYN trade under (449.0).

When asking a question and including rules references only the rule number needs to be stated. Don't worry about which module it came from. Chuck (FEDS) and Mike (FEAR) know the rules better than anyone else here except for SVC (GOD). A large number of the players who reply in the Q&A Discussion thread have been playing for a great many years as well.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 11:32 pm: Edit

Here is when DB will be resourced in the next SoP update:

5-3H: All players simultaneously announce their battle force deployments identified in step 5-3F including use of:
• Command points (308.92) including ADMs and MMGs that provide extra command positions.
• Amount of drone bombardment (309.0) points assigned.
• Formation bonus (308.7).
• Scout formation bonus (308.53).
• Cloaked decoys to provide a formation bonus (538.54).
• ISC core formation positions (324.21).
• Uncrippled ships to tow web-trapped, crippled units from web (512.32).
5-3J: Pay drone bombardment costs (320.32) or use eligible drone supply sources (509.1-U) or (318.2).

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Thomas, my adding the module notation is for all of those who do NOT have extensive knowledge of the rules. I'm not doing it for GOD, FEDS, FEAR, or you and other seasoned players. I'm doing it for retreads like myself and for all of the new players whose playing well and having fun encourages purchases from ADB directly or their local gaming store which carries ADB products. It's their purchases which help keep ADB financially viable and allows them to keep new products coming.

My apologies if this sounds like a scolding. It isn't meant to be. I find myself regularly referring to the "About_Federation_&_Empire" PDF so I can follow the conversations effectively. It has been an invaluable tool. I'm keeping in mind all of those who haven't discovered it yet. Frequently, when following conversations, I read a rule number being being sited or quoted to the second or third decimal point. Doubtless the writer has the rules open at that time. I refer to the "About_Federation_&_Empire" once if a number is given, or twice if only a name of a game concept is given.

The SFU is large and can be daunting for newbies and retreads. The notations simply allow for a reduction of some of the frustration which leads to people quitting the game. A good writer writes for his full audience. Two or three key strokes doesn't consume much time, but saves significant time multiplied by the number of people it benefits.