I’ve been thinking of a Stellar Shadows sort of F&E mini-scenario involving the Tholians. I discussed this with some of the F&E players at Origins, and I’d like to post a narrative description to talk about, before working up a properly formatted version.

I’m currently calling it Greater Tholia, although “The Six Powers War” might be a better name.

I posted a bigger description of this in the Proposals Board/Other Proposals/ The Tholian Invasion section, since a discussion of the general topic was going on there.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:57 am: Edit

I've been calling it "The Fifth Power" and promised SVC a couple of weeks before Origins that I would have it written for him for the next issue of Cap Log.

My version has the 312th arriving in the mid 160s and being available for the begining of the General War. They attack the Klingons on T-3 with the Hydrans. This allows it to be used as an alternate start to the GW or as a stand alone 10 turn scenario.

More to come in September (including the Scenario).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 10:26 am: Edit

So far as I can recall, F&E makes no distinction between Tholian disruptor-armed ships and photon-armed ships. While they have very different combat "styles" in SFB, their overall combat power is about the same. So for F&E they are considered interchangeable (except for the dreadnought).

But there is one situation in which the photon-armed ships are distinctly better, web defense. Combat within a web takes place at very short ranges, ameliorating the accuracy issues that photon torpedoes sometimes have and maximizing the value of the high "crunch power" of the photon. Also, due to the unique aspects of web defense, the photon torpedo is more energy efficient. Consider - the Klingons have assaulted the web and driven the surviving Tholians behind the middle ring. The Tholians try to attrit the Klingons with phasers but if the attack is heavy enough sufficient Klingons will survive to advance to the middle ring once the outer web weakens. Disruptor-armed Tholians must pay 4 points of power per disruptor (to use them at full effect) on the turn the Klingons assault the middle ring and the heavy weapons finally come into play. But photon torpedoes would have been armed in advance during the turns when the Klingons are still stuck in the outer web, and then held. So when the Klingons finally crash the middle web, the Tholians are only spending 2 points of power per torpedo, leaving them more power for other purposes, whether EW or shield reinforcement or whatever.

With the above in mind, I decided to suggest a minor rule modification in F&E for the Tholians. Some limited number of their ships will be designated as photon torpedo versions. These will fight like standard warships in open space but have +1 compot in web defense battles. For examle, the Tholian CA is an "8" in F&E. The CAP (which doesn't currently exist in F&E) would be an "8" in open space but a "9" in web defense.

The above would slightly improve Tholian defenses but would, at least so I assume, have only a very small effect on strategic play balance since the Tholians are only a minor empire.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 12:11 pm: Edit

That sounds like an interesting idea. It emphasizes the defensive nature of the Tholians, without giving them a significant offensive boost.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 02:49 pm: Edit

An alternative rule would be to give the Tholians a +1 BIR boost if they have enough photon-ships during base defense. This would be more in line with the existing ISC Echelon and 4PW Hellbore vs Klingons rules.

It's an interesting idea, but I do wonder if the Tholians really need a defensive boost past the current web rules.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

My opinion:

You are placing too much value on a single impulse of firepower in something representing months of maneuver and fire.

As you yourself have noted that it would "have only a very small effect on strategic play balance" there is probably no point to adding the additional "dirt" to the game. Without something on the counters to denote that a given ship is a photon ship, the Tholian player can always say "all of the ships that are involved in the defense of this base this turn are the photon ships" and even if no ship moves, make the same statement when a different base is attacked (even if ships were destroyed or crippled at the other base). You in essence deny the Coalition the opportunity to decoy the Tholian photon ships to Base X while they actually attack Base Y because you are allowing the Tholian player (again because there are no "photon counters") to simply say "surprise, the defending ships at this base just happen to be the ones armed with photon torpedoes."

At the very least you would need to advocate that the Tholian player would have to actually produce the ships (not necessarily, in my view, paying any difference in cost, but definitely some limit on the numbers that could be built, perhaps both in a given turn and the number in overall service, perhaps by type) and require that the counter be marked in some way (which gives the Coalition the option of destroying such ships by directed damage in open space battles as well as when attacking a base).

But simply allowing a Tholian player to say "The four Patrol Corvettes, three Destroyers, three heavy cruisers, command cruiser, and dreadnought defending this battle station all happen to be photon variants, so I get to add an extra 12 points (or whatever) to my ComPot" (note: this assumed a "battlegroup" adding an extra ship) is to me pretty much a non-starter.

As an addition, even though they cannot overload them, they would benefit from the short range as well as the ships, so would you also be advocating that any Tholian base that had heavy fighters would also gain a +1 for the heavy fighter squadron's photons?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 04:34 pm: Edit

SPP,

Well, I had assumed that if something like this were to be accepted, it would require counters for the photon-armed ships. I had assumed that some future module would include these in the counter sheet, along with rules detailing limits on photon-equipped production.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

My apologies (honestly, there is no sarcasm or other negative import intended), I did not read such in your proposal and assumed that you were just going with a "the Tholian player designates" concept from what I read.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I see insufficient merit to this dirt.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 09:41 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I see insufficient merit to this dirt.

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By Bill Steele (Bill83501) on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 10:48 pm: Edit

What if you had a CW leader type rule, every 3rd hull is a photon ship?

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 12:05 am: Edit

That was harsh.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 08:16 am: Edit

CW Leader type rule would work well

For each 3 x CA/CC/CW etc - add 1 Compot.

Or to make it less flexible - simple counter similar to the Fed Fighter counters for the SB's - which is placed on the base.

For each X Tholian ships - +1 Compot (or just + 1 BIR, would be nice to give the Tholians something useful...)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 11:01 am: Edit

One photon ship isn't enough to shift the BIR, six aren't either.

I do not see one or two more attack factors in a Tholian battle force being worth a few paragraphs of rules. The few random photon ships are already subsumed into the web advantages.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 01:10 pm: Edit

What was "harsh"? Wargamers always talk about "dirt" in the rules (unnecessary and time-consuming extra rules that do not accomplish anything). Others had already said that this idea was just dirt. The word "dirt" had no connotation of harshness. I was just following the conversation.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Off the top of my head ----- Isn't there a SFB rule that allows Tholian (and WYN) to add an extra ship to the battle force if defending in the home territory? Perhaps F&E could apply such a rule if defending a web?


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Garth L. Getgen:

In Star Fleet Battles rule (S8.223) increases the command rating of Tholian ships fighting in Tholian space by one, but does not increase the command rating of a unit with a 10 command rating. Thus a CC (command rating 9) could command a force of 12 ships (9 normally, plus one for the increase in command rating, plus one if a battle group is used, plus the free scout), and a DN could command the same force, but not more than that.

Note, the above is "normally," obviously a "Command Point" could further increase the total, except that the Tholians and Lyran Democratic Republic are not allowed to use command points (S8.24).

The rule also applies to the Lyran Democratic Republic, but does not apply to the WYN Star Cluster, which is covered by rule (S8.222) which increases the command rating of WYN ships inside WYN space by five, but not to more than nine. (A WYN ship with a Command rating of three would be treated as a command rating of eight, but a WYN ship with a Command rating of eight would have a command rating of only nine, not 13). A WYN ship with a Command rating of nine would not be increased at all, and a WYN ship with a Command rating of 10 would remain 10 (it is not reduced to nine).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 03:21 pm: Edit

A couple of comments:

Regarding SVC's comment from his 11:01 AM post that "I do not see one or two more attack factors in a Tholian battle force being worth a few paragraphs of rules." - This does get to the issue of how many total photon torpedo ships the Tholians have, which I don't think has ever been conclusively established. But I don't think it's intrinsically unreasonable for the Tholians, late in the war, to be able to mass 5 photon torpedo ships for the defense of a key base - a CAP, CWP, and 3 DDP let us say. At +5 compot over multiple turns (unless the Klingons are using DirDam against the photon-armed ships), it may not save the base but it would increase Klingon casualties before the base falls. Whether that's enough of an impact to justify the extra rules is another matter...

Even if a rule like this were adopted, the DP (and its upgrade, the DPW) and PCP should not get this bonus. For most Tholian ships, the photon torpedoes replace disruptors, resulting in the dynamic discussed above. For the DP, the photon torpedoes replace phaser-3s, resulting in a clear firepower upgrade. That's why the basic Tholian dreadnought is a "10" but the DP is already an "11-10". It gets the firepower upgrade already, in all battles. As for the PCP, a single photon torpedo replaces two phaser-1s, resulting in a ship that is less effective in web defense. The photon torpedo is better than the disruptor for web defense but the phaser-1 is the best ship-mounted weapon the Tholians have for that role.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

And again, you are running this on the effects of the weapon on a single impulse of a single turn, and as a single turn is six months of a campaign, I just do not see this.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 05:49 pm: Edit

SPP,

Well, perhaps. But I didn't want to talk about SFB tactics in detail in an F&E thread, so I had to simplify the argument. It is the case, however, that in some circumstances the photon torpedoes will actually get multiple shots during the web defense.

Klingons have assaulted the outer web and forced the defenders behind the middle web. If all the Klingons have assaulted the same "side" of the web, the Tholians send a ship to the outer web on the opposite side to reinforce the web. The base's phaser-4s then annihilate the Klinks over multiple turns. The Klingons either have to send ships into the outer web on all sides or keep some ships completely out of the web to respond to Tholian attempts to reinforce the outer web. In either case, only a portion of the Klingon fleet can fire at any Tholians trying to advance to the outer web, partially negating the Klingon numerical advantage.

So... on turn "X-1" (which is still several turns prior to the outer web weakening enough for the Klingons to leave) the Tholians concentrate phaser-1s from the ships and phaser-4s from the base on the section against which they plan to advance. Turn "X" - the Tholians fire their phasers again early in the turn, trying to kill as as many Klingon weapons as possible. Late in turn "X", three Tholian photon ships with full overloads move onto the middle web. They now trade overloaded photons (supported by EW from the base) against Klingon overloaded disruptors^* at range-2, the Klingon firepower already having been reduced both by two turns of Tholian phaser fire and by Klingon fleet dispersion. At most, the Klingons only take out one of the Tholians photon ships. The other two escape back behind the middle web. Turn "X+1" - the Tholians rearm their photons. The Klingom disruptors don't get to fire because they have no targets. Turn "X+2" the Klingons can advance off the web, but the photon torpedoes are now rearmed. Two of the original three photon ships get a second round of photons off, and the Klingon superior rate of fire for their disruptors has not (up to this point) gotten them any more turns of fire than the photon torpedoes.


^*There are other things we could talk about, like the Klingons trying to tractor the Tholians when they are on the middle web, to keep them from retreating. But power is an issue. How much power are the Klingons putting into speed? If they want to advance off the outer web as soon as it decays to 31, they don't have a lot of power left over for tractors and overloading disruptors (and EW) just in case the Tholians try this tactic. But if they put a lot of power into those functions just before the web decays to 31, they will advance off the outer web on a later turn, giving additonal turns for the phaser-4s to conduct their one-sided discussion with their Klingon guests. As a practical matter, the amount of speed being generated by the Klingons on the outer web will be a major factor in the Tholian decision making process - whether to try this tactic or just sit back behind the web and wait for the Klingons, giving the phaser-1 and phaser-4s additonal turns of unanswered fire.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

And you are still stuck with the fact that you are trying to define 6 months of combat as a few impulses over a few turns.

Federation & Empire is six month turns. When a Coalition fleet piles into a hex with a Tholian base (whether a Starbase, Battle Station, Base Station, or Mobile Base) surrounded by web you cannot look at it on the basis of "The Tholians put up a battle line at the base." There are a lot of maneuvers and other operations going on in that hex during that six months.

Federation & Empire does not prevent the Tholians (if they had them and they were in that hex) from putting three DNs in the battle line (or prevent the Coalition from putting every DN they have brought into the hex in a single battle line). All the fighting going on in that hex, which may revolve around that base, is not necessarily actually taking place at the base. Convoys and minor colonies not represented on the map are being raided and defended. Patrolling ships looking for raiders trying to slip past are fighting lonely actions in the depths of space within that hex. The Tholians (more prominently because of the webs) or Federation or Klingons or whoever is defending the base (or planet) gets benefits for doing so, but it does not actually mean every battle was fought at that base.

The turn is six months of feints, raids, and yes assaults.

Would you want a rule that says "When attacking a hex with a battle station every third round the defenders have to fight without the battle station to reflect combat operations not actually taking place at the base during the six months of operations represented by the turn?"

The fact that the Tholians get to deploy defensive battle lines hiding behind the web of the base when most of the battles will be taking place where the base is not located during the six months is enough of an advantage. In SFB terms you do not generally send a battle line equal to a Tholian battleline that is defending a base behind webs. You attack things that the Tholians have to defend to draw as many of the ships away from the base as you can before you hit it with a fleet. (In a very real sense, the same applies to every other empire, i.e., you attack things to draw ships away from the base because you really, really do not want to attack a battle station and a defending fleet equal to your attacking fleet.)

So, no, I do not think this is a good thing to add to the game.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 07:04 pm: Edit

That is a why F&E is not SFB. I have played many a game of SFB and a very few bits and pieces of F&E and none under the current rules. If you were to compare what goes on in one battle of SFB vs one battle in F&E it is not the same at all.

F&E as Steve says above is 6 months a turn. SFB is 1 min. per Impulse.

In many a campaign the klingons fire Disr at the Federation. The Federation forces damaged retreat. However there is a time when the Federation get lucky alpha strike with above average photons and cripple blow up a Klingon. So as the above thing with the Tholians and webs with photons. Would not the Federation get a ah lucky rule and get more kills?

Point being the time of the turns make that not possible to compare battles vs each other.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Well, it's pretty clear that neither Steve likes the idea, so I will cede the field.

But Gregory, you may want to recheck your math about SFB being "1 min. per Impulse."

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 06:01 am: Edit

It was off the top of my head.... last night did not check the rule book at all. It is subjective time of 1 min per turn as by the rules. I knew it was 1 min of... i stand corrected.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Not that the actual time vs 1 min per impulse is relevant to the point (which is that it is a tiny fraction either way of six months).