Archive through June 01, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
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Archive through June 01, 2020
Yeah, I don't need to go down a lengthy diversion or anything, but I'm hard pressed to see a situation where building an FV over an FCR is going to actually be worth doing.
I mean, yeah, in some corner case situation, having the 3 fighters that can get sent forward to a battle line, or having an FV to make into a small, weird carrier group in a small fight might be helpful. But in a general sense, an FCR (which costs exactly the same as an FV, assuming the FFF have been used for other actual carriers) is going to be vastly more useful.
I built an FCR this turn (well, converted one, but still). Any time that I'd ever consider making an FV? I'll make an FCR instead :-)
We are all correct 
Not only does everyone see the value of Escort carriers differently - I see it as a useful addition to smaller battles battles and support for larger battles - wheres Peter see's it as a Expensive FCR.
What makes a practical difference is what rules set you play.
If you don't play with AO - there are no FCR's so the game value of FV's goes up (as the choice is extra fighters or no extra fighters).
With AO, the value of FV's goes down - as you get choices and I agree for larger battles, a FCR is better (but not really useable for smaller battles, as the battle may only last 1 round!).
As a good question though (and as your playing with AO) - what do you think of the Klingon FV?
8 Compot (so 2 more than the Fed FV) and marginally more expensive (12 Ep's v 10 Ep's due to the 4th Fighter) - is that good enough to build?
(Bolting on a AD5 makes it a average 7 compot ship and in larger battles, you add a spare E4A to protect it)
Escort carrier groups are where you hide the FCR to protect it from infiltration attacks (537.12) in PO and raids (314.0) in AO. With the Feds the 9 total extra fighters can refill a CVB or better than half of a CVA group.
In the case of the Feds when they first enter the war every SE is important. Even 1/2 SEs add up and are useful. For pinning if the other side doesn't have an equivalent 1/2 SE then a whole SE is pinned by that 1/2 SE of fighters.
Paul wrote:
>>As a good question though (and as your playing with AO) - what do you think of the Klingon FV?>>
I'll build a few early on, before there are better carriers (usually building 3 to soak up 12FFF on T2), but once there are D5Vs or D7Vs, they stop being built, in my experience. Like, they aren't terrible ships for little fights, and there are a lot of them on the map, but I wouldn't go out of my way to make them when better carriers are available.
Thomas wrote:
>>For pinning if the other side doesn't have an equivalent 1/2 SE then a whole SE is pinned by that 1/2 SE of fighters.>>
I'm fairly certain this is not true (203.54). The rule specifically states that "half a ship" will pin another "half a ship". Nowhere does it say that "half a ship" will pin a "full ship".
I recall a discussion (vaguely) from years ago that although a fast ship is pinned by a full SEQ, a single SEQ ship is not pinned by a half SEQ.
Not pleased at the time but it is what it is.
***
While you can indeed hide an FCR in a small carrier group and this is a use for a Fed FFV, this is not a good use of EPs, as you can hide the FCR in a CVS group or whatever just as easily (and the FCR should probably be stacked with such units).
***
Klingon FVs get built sometimes because it's a decent question on turns 1-3 whether to build it or D6Vs. My take on it is to go with D6Vs as the command rating is occasionally useful on that ship and it has more useful compot (D6V+AD5+F5E is CW density once these escorts are available).
In any case, after turn three, D5Vs become available and I've never seen an FV built instead of those at this point (and I've never seen the Klingons go full carrier production).
***
The only game where I went full carrier production (ie 2 full carriers and an escort carrier) was The Breeze where the Kzinti have nothing better to do with funds and why not go crazy-nuts with carriers?
Shudder.
I agree
1/2 a Ship Equivalent pins nothing (which can be an advantage if you don't want a reserve dropping a ship off and 1 ship equivalent would pin a Fast Ship.
Heck, 1 ship equivalent can pin 3 Equivalents (a LGE/DVL or CVA hull) - and in theory 4, but only if your facing the IC!
(I can't think of any other single hull with 4 Equivalents?)
AT7
Raids happened, moves are well under way.
In the Raid phase, the Alliance successfully raided 4 Coalition provinces, got chased off by some BATS fighters in a 5th, and managed to liberate planet 1001 that was held down by an F5L and E4, but nothing else was in range to react in, so a DNL managed to kill the E4 and chase off the F5L.
In Hydran space, the Hydrans are attacking numerous province and planet garrisons with oppressive force, but otherwise are avoiding the main Coalition fleet in 0815; the Hydrans also pinned the Lyran fleet at 0411 and captured/contested 3 provinces again.
In Kzinti space, so far, the Kzinti sent a large fleet from 1704 to attack BATS 1807 (currently defended by about 15 ships), and have various groups of ships attacking various province raiders. They have avoided the large Coalition fleet in 1403.
The Feds don't have a ton they can do that will work out well this turn, but send most of the 3rd Fleet from SB 2211 to attack BATS 1809 (defended by about 8 ships) and send the 4th Fleet from SB 2204 to liberate planet 2106; the Fed Home Fleet mostly moves to planet 2306 and the remains of the 7th Fleet goes to BATS 2612.
Not much left likely to move at this point.
AT7
It is worth noting that on the Fed/Kzinti/Klingon front, there are numerous reserves that can go places, but they only total about 15 ships all together, and can't reach any of the fights inside of Kzinti space. There is one more reserve on the South edge of Klingon space that can't currently reach any existing fights.
There are 3 small reserves on the Hydran front, but one is pinned at 0411, and the other two combined don't stand a chance against any of the fights they can reach.
I don't understand. Why don't you have an attack fleet at Klinshai yet?
=)
Consolidation of forces!
:-)
Ted, The Feds should be there in a couple of turns. They only just joined the war.
AT7
Moves are done, waiting for reserves to show up.
In Hydran space, 5 battle hexes; an obvious pin fight over SB 0411, 4 fights where the Hydrans will probably kill an FF, losing fighters in return, and liberate 3 planets (0416, 0519, 0718). There are two Coalition reserves that can move, but they are small, and unlikely to engage.
In the Kzinti front, 5 fights; 4 of them are one sided muggings of province raiders or the garrison holding planet 1105; the large Marquis fleet (about 60 ships) is attacking Klingon BATS 1807, which is currently defended by about 15 ships.
On the Fed front, 2 fights. The 4th Fleet is liberating planet 2106 from a small garrison force, and the 3rd Fleet is attacking Klingon BATS 1809, which is currently defended by about 8 ships.
There are 3 reserves on the ZIN/KLI/FED corner that can engage various fights; they'll likely defend the BATS fights, and will cause damage to the Alliance.
AT7
Combat is over!
In Hydran space, the Hydrans killed a handful of FFs and liberated planets 0416, 0519, and 0718.
In Kzinti space, the Kzinti killed a handful of FFs, liberated planet 1001, and killed Klingon BATS 1807.
On the Fed Front, the Feds liberated planet 2106 and were chased off from BATS 1809 by a pile of reserves showing up. The Feds had more ships, but not many fighters, and were going to end up taking a lot of damage trying to kill the BATS, so they just offered an approach and left.
Ships Killed:
-ZIN: CC
-HYD:
-FED:
-LYR: 2FF
-KLI: 6E4, (F5L, F5, E4)
The Alliance rolled mostly higher than the Coalition this turn, although there were only, like, 5 dice rolled the whole turn; in the one actual round of significance over BATS 1807, BIR rolled up and the Kzinti rolled a 6 to the Klingon's 4, giving the Kzinti a free autokill, so while the Kzinti lost a CC to mauling, the Klingons had to self kill an E4 and also cripple the BATS on top of that, ending that fight very quickly.
AT7
The turn is over!
On the Hydran front, there are about 65 ships at the Capital, about 40 ships at SB 0215, and handfulls of FFs in Southern Lyran space and the Hydran back fields. There is a moderate reserve (10 mediocre ships) off map and a small reserve (5FF) at SB 0215.
On the Kzinti front, there are about 65 ships in 1401 (including a full 13 ship Reserve), about 55 ships at SB 1704, a few groups of FFs in open space, and another reserve (12 mediocre ships) off map.
On the Fed front, there are about 20 ships at SB 2204; about 30 ships at planet 2306; about 35 ships at SB 2211; 9 ships at BATS 2612. The Feds have 2 reserves at planet 2509 (8 and 9 ships) and another reserve at planet (8 ships).
Fed space is largely empty of Coalition units currently (2 captured provinces, left in Klingon hands to avoid pulling reserves into Fed space), but there are 150+ ships that can attack into Fed space this turn, and plenty of poorly defended targets to hit.
The Feds sent 20EPs to the Kzinti (through planet 1802 to off map), but it is still in transit off map.
Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD3AT7end.html
CT8
LYRAN ECO
Old Survey: 79
Survey roll: 11
Survey total: 90
CommConvoy: 0
Transfers: -10
Salvage: 1.25
Treasury: 20.675
Sub-total: 21.925
Capital: 1 - 5
Major: 8 - 40
Major(dev/cap): 0 - 0
Minor: 10 - 30
Minor(dev/cap): 0 - 0
Province: 11 - 22
Province(off): 8 - 16
Province(dis/cap): 4 - 4
NZ hexes: 7 - 1.4
Sub-total: 118.4
Total EPs: 140.325
Production:
DN - DN - 16
CA - CV - 10 (6xFFF)
CW - CWE - 6
CW - STJ - 7
CW - CWS - 8
DW - DWE - 5
2xDW - 2xDW - 8
3xFF - 3xFF - 7.5 (0404 0411 1403)
Sub-total: 67.5
Overbuilds:
Sub-total: 0
Conversions:
(0408) -
(1403) -
Sub-total: 0
Repairs:
(0411) - dd, 2ff - 3
(0815) - 2cc, cw, 3dw, cwe, dwe, 4d5, ad5, f5l, 2f5 - 24
Sub-total: 27
Total spent: 109.5
Treasury: 45.825
Transfer EP to Klingons:
Start Command Points: 4
Used Command Points: 4
Bought Command Points: 5
Current Command Points: 5
----------------------------------
KLINGON ECO
Old Survey: 51
Survey roll: 8
Survey total: 59
B-10 (1)
Old total: 22
B-10 roll: 3
B-10 total: 25
B-10 (2)
Old total: 1
B-10 roll: 2
B-10 total: 3
DBB: -1.2 (12)
CommConvoy: 10
Transfers: 10
Salvage: 8.85
Treasury: 14.4
Sub-total: 42.05
Capital: 1 - 5
Major: 8 - 40
Major(dev/cap): 1 -
Minor: 15 - 45
Minor(dev/cap): 3 - 3
Province: 24 - 48
Province(off): 2 - 4
Province(dis/cap): 10 - 10
NZ hexes: 38 - 7.6
Sub-total: 164.6
Total: 206.65
Builds:
C8 - C8 - 16
D7 - D7V - 10 (6xFFF)
D7 - D6M - 10
D5 - D5S - 8
D5 - D5V - 7 (6xFFF)
2xD5 - 2xAD5 - 12
5xD5 - 5xD5 - 25
3xF5L - 3xE4 - 7.5 (in 2318, 1716)
2xF5 - 2xF5E - 8
F5 - F5 - 3 (in 1509)
3xF5 - 3xF5 - 9
E4 - E4 - 2.5
B-10 - B-10 - 5
B-10 - B-10 - 5
Sub-total: 128
Overbuilds:
Sub-total: 0
Activations:
2xD6 - 2
Sub-total: 2
Conversions:
(1411) D6 -> D6M - 5
(1411) D6 -> D6D - 3
(1411) F5 -> F5S - 1
(1509) F5 -> F5S - 1
Sub-total: 10
Repairs:
(0815) - d7c, d6d, 2d6m, 2f5 - 12
(1013) - 4d5, 2f5 - 8
(1214) - d7 - 2
(1307) - e4 - 1
(1403) - d7, f5, 2e4, ff - 6
(1507) - d5 - 1.5
(1509) - d7c, d7, d5, 2e4 - 7.5
(1716) - d7c - 2
(2318) - 2d6m - 6
(2416) - d7c - 2
(2517) - d7c - 2
(2519) - f5, f5s - 2
Sub-total: 52
Total spent: 192
Treasury: 14.65
Transfer EP from Lyrans:
Start Command Points: 6
Used Command Points: 6
Bought Command Points: 2
IWR Command Points: 2
Current Command Points: 4
That's a lot of repairs.
On the upside, the Coalition went from, like, 60 cripples on the map to about 15.
52 on Klingon repairs seems pretty standard to me for CT8. Sure, it's a lot, but it doesn't strike me as being disproportionate.
Coalition havent started on the Hydran Capital SB yet... and have to take out the Marquis SB as well as maybe the Fed 3rd SB and if Im being realistic, I should hit the 0215 SB as well.
So yeah, Im gonna be hurting after this turn.
Can I ask the Romulans to come in early?
Pace yourself!
Like, SB 0215 is a hassle, but all it is really doing is costing the Lyrans 6 or 7 EPs a turn and trying up a few dozen unimpressive ships. I mean, like, you should never take tactical advice from your opponent and all, but really, I think the important priority is the Hydran Capital, 3rd SB, Marquis, then 0215.
Cowards! 52 for repairs is a pittance.
CT8
After a minor pause due to Jason having a lot of real life to deal with, moves are underway!
The Romulans successfully raid a couple Eastern Fed provinces, seeing a VUL get scared away by a particularly feisty POL (which rolled a 12).
On the Hydran front, the Lyrans have rounded up Hydran province raiders, moved ships onto devastated planets 0519 and 0718, and the Coalition have started pouring ships into the Hydran Capital.
On the Kzinti front, the Coalition have only just started rounding up province garrisons, and are attacking planet 1001 to recapture it.
On the Fed front, the Klingons are so far attacking 4x Southern edge BATS, neutral planet 2214, planet 2715; none of these targets are defended by other than a single ship here and there, but there are reserves that can reach some or all of these targets. They are also sending ships to SB 2211, and got an F5L a much needed vacation on the now neutral Orion enclave.
Plenty of ships left to move!
"and got an F5L a much needed vacation on the now neutral Orion enclave"
A bit of a waste off a good hull?
What else is a crippled E4A or SNB for?
It was the smallest ship in range.
They earned it.
Per 314.31, the Roms cannot use SC 2 ships for their pre-war raids, so the VUL shouldn't have been out there.