I really don't see any need to change the rule. I imagine that smaller survey ships while allowed to roll in F&E aren't _really_ good enough for the job which is why more can't be built.

I imagine the reason for the Hydrans to have a period where they can't build any is due to the emergency going on at the time.

Even when pushed offmap, they can convert RNs to PICs for 5EP easily enough at the offmap SB (as it is the capital at that point), so really there is just a three turn or so period where the Hydrans cannot build a survey ship.

Just not that big a deal imo.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Last year I asked for a clarification to the "obsolete SR type" rule. It basically boils down to this: ONLY the Fed CLS and Hydran SR are "obsolete" until ADB clarifies otherwise. Basically, the Hydrans are SooL on the survey ship side until the PIC comes out.

By Stefano Predieri (Preda) on Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 01:54 pm: Edit

If the coalition put the needed ships in Hydran theatre the hydrans never really come back in map in a significant way. Two extra SR would mean a LOT of extra production for the Hydrans long term, specially if playing with the high risk survey rule (Enough ships to keep up the normal exploration and a cheap repair vessel to cripple if you're unlucky). And that will force coalition to send a lot more troops in theatre long term, or have hydrans who threaten a lot more than the usual 2 minor planets...
That said, in our games we always played with SR obsolete as just as PIC get buildable.
But is an important change in balancing.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Time matters when doing survey (extra survey). For the extra survey points to add up, and for the extra province income to add up. When your fleet is hammered and reeling back to the offmap, are you really going to divert much of your income and some of your remaining cruisers (if any are left) to survey that will pay off in 10 turns (maybe?). The tradeoff is repairs/pin hulls over losing ship equivalents for distant future profit. Not a good choice. A profit you can use against the Vudar, well, that isn't much of a profit. In my opinion.

The obsolete SRs could be built in the shipyard when the Hydrans actually have income AND a connection to the offmap - big difference. Of course they are obsolete. I see the basement guy's point, I hope he is done with the sandwich and back working, but this got nailed down and concreted in StratOps.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 03:08 pm: Edit

And yes the tac note addressed the actual cost of extra survey ships. I read the rule, just not all of it. So sue me. My point is the SIT should match the rules, particularly obscure rules I didn't pay attention to.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 06:47 pm: Edit

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Quote:

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 08:44 am: Edit

Idiot question, when is the 13 EP the Klingons receive from the Romulans for the C9/KC9 (704.2) sale spendable, Turn 6 production, Turn 6 post-combat, or Turn 7 Production??

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By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Thomas, I'd have assumed post-combat (like WYN ship sales) but asking for a precise SOP point ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 09:10 pm: Edit

I think the Klingons get it as income on the turn it is scheduled.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 10:44 pm: Edit

I assume it's an economic transfer - and thus would arrive during the turn when economic transfers would normally be received. (Strategic movement to the capital via Romulan tug, not represented in the game? Or perhaps via operational movement as the tug obviously doesn't have a strategic movement path to Romulan territory).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, June 20, 2020 - 04:59 pm: Edit

How many ship-turns of supply does the Hydran supply tug provide?

I cannot find the rule that specifies this.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, June 20, 2020 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Richard,

(509.51) 1st para "...twenty "ship-turns" of supplies."

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, June 20, 2020 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Thanks, I see it now.

o_O

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 01:46 pm: Edit

I might have been misreading Restricted Supply Points - so before I ask a formal question.

What does

"Convoys and Tugs serving as supply points extend the supply grid (of the owning empire) from bases and planets, but cannot be used to connect two bases/planets that are more than six hexes apart."

...mean and allow you to do?

So using the example (and no blocking enemy ships etc).

Lyran SB in 408 (which is the closest supply point)

Lyran Supply Tug in 413

Lyran controlled planet with an FRD and cripples in 416.

So 408 to 416 is more than 6 hexes apart.

I believe : -

1) Lyran ships in 416, being within 6 hexes of the Supply Tug are in Supply and can receive replacement Fighters.

2) Main Grid Ep's can't be used to repair the ships on the FRD - as 408 to 416 is more than 6 apart, the Supply Tug can't 'connect' them - and using Main Supply Grid Ep's in 416 would therefore connect them.

(Partial Grid Ep's could be used though).

3) Ships could Strategically move 'north' from 416 to 413, but can't go further north or 'south' from 408 (or further away) to 413, but again can't go further south, as that would connect them.

4) Other Lyran bases within 6 hexes of 416 (and not within 6 of 413) are partial supply grids and not in full supply - as that again, would connect the two bases (i.e. 413, can't link to 416 to link to say a Lyran BATS in 719 and provide full supply - 719 remains in a Partial Grid with 416.)

So basically a supply tug provides Supply and Replacement Fighters (up to 6 hexes), but not the ability to transfer Ep's from one part of the grid to another part of the grid (other than possibly something like another Tug or Convoy, as they may not count as a Base) or SM through it (or link bases to bases for longer range supply).

Weirdly - no related questions on 413.3 have been asked....so it might just be me.

It would explain why Military Convoys within 3 hexes of a base are so much more superior than Civilian Convoys and Supply Tugs (as they can be used to connect two grids) - and cost twice as much.

Thanks

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 03:25 pm: Edit

NT

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 03:29 pm: Edit

The key question at the moment is the paying for repairs issue. The Feds have a bunch of ships on an SB. During the econ phase, the SB will be in a partial grid. After the econ phase, but before repairs, the Feds will setup a supply tug within 6 hexes of both a main grid supply point and the SB. We all agree that partial grid EPs can pay for repairs there.

The question is whether or not main grid EP can also be used.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 04:51 pm: Edit

ICYMI:

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Quote:

(420.432) The repair facility must be in a Supply Grid to perform repairs. FRDs and battle stations (and other bases) must be connected to a Supply Grid (FRDs never form part of it); bases can conduct repairs in a Partial Supply Grid (413.34) and can replace fighters if they have the EPs to pay for them (413.41). See also (410.4).

(413.40) ...Any base or planet not connected to the capital Supply Grid is by definition in a Partial Supply Grid...

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By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Thanks Chuck

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 25, 2020 - 05:19 pm: Edit

I think that should be 'main' rather than 'capital' as offmap grids are main grids, not partial grids.

Please note this for the next update to basic rules.

FEDS

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 07:00 pm: Edit

The Tholians set up a base, and maybe some PDUs at a planet outside of their space. Then on turn 28, they return to neutrality. Per the rules, all Tholian ships return to their space. What happens with the base and the PDUs?

For example, if they are on a Klingon planet, would the Klingons have to fight them in order to regain control of the planet?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, June 27, 2020 - 07:20 pm: Edit

They'd probably scuttle them.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Copied from Q&A in case the Gallery knows better than me and William : -

(503.331) leaves me with a host of questions:

1) Suppose the Tholians designate a 12-ship "detached fleet" on their turn. It goes somewhere, completes a mission, then part or all of it returns home. During their next econ phase, can they replace the portion that returned home with different ships? Or do they have to continue to use the same ships?

2) The Tholians designate a 12-ship "detached fleet" on their turn. They go and fight a battle in which two are killed. Could they send two more during their reaction or reserve movement?

3) In either of the above cases, suppose the Tholians attempt to send more ships by operational or reaction movement, but they are pinned before reaching the rest of their fleet. The rules state that they "must enter a hex containing a unit of the detached fleet during the same movement phase . . ." Now what?


Basically, when does designation occur and can ships be replaced if they are not killed?

As replacement of Detachment ships explicitly refers to killed, it would seem you can't voluntarily change the ships in it (i.e. death is the only method)?

Designation - I would love to say 'the eco' turn, as designation for everything else is done then AND if the fleet was using Expeditionary Supply Rules, is the point that designation could occur.

If it can be designated at other points, it would be fair to say, it could create other restrictions on the designated ships - i.e. if you could designate them during the reserve phase, those ships could only reserve to a battle involving the Detached Fleet - unless they was able to remain in Tholian space.

Once question not asked - and possibly dependent on it being a Expeditionary Fleet - can the 'Detached Fleet' split up?

The wording 'Fleet' infers not, but pinning could involuntarily split the fleet up - so can the Detached Fleet split up and voluntarily go to different hexes?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 01:44 pm: Edit

The detached fleet is stated to be within the limits of an expeditionary fleet.

Replace 'detached' with 'expeditionary' in all your above questions and see if that helps.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Richard

Alas, that doesn't answer any of it, as they operate within the limits of an expeditionary fleet (i.e. 12 ships, 1 MB and 1 FRD) - but they don't have to be an expeditionary fleet.

We could make some assumptions - but those assumption might be very wrong

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Operating within the limits of an expeditionary fleet means that the limits are the same.

So, if an expeditionary cannot change out its ships mid turn, then a Tholian detached fleet cannot either, for example.

Other limits such as having to keep your ships within a certain range of each other and so on would apply as well, being a limit of an expeditionary fleet.

I suggest going through your questions with this in mind and reissuing those that aren't covered by the limits on expeditionary fleets/ It would at least simplify things to just those that aren't already covered in the rules.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Part of it is -- I think the sentence about the Tholians being allowed to replace losses confuses matters. Is that putting on restrictions that an expeditionary fleet does not have? Granting capabilities that an expeditionary fleet does not have? Both? Something else?

If that sentence were not there, I would agree with Richard's post immediately above.