Sometimes you need to cripple ships; if the Hydrans, for example, had been directing instead of crippling, the Coalition probably would have taken the hex and destroyed the shipyard. The Kzinti were directing small hulls to also cripple more things.

Crippling all these ships this turn means that the Coalition have way less stuff to actively defend with, and the Alliance will have more opportunity to do useful things this turn. And the Coalition spending 100 EPs on repairs means that aren't spending 100 EPs overbuilding FFs.

I'm a big fan of directing ships when not doing so is a bad idea (which is a lot of the time). But in the situations here, mass crippling was the better move.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 21, 2020 - 11:46 am: Edit

^

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, June 22, 2020 - 12:03 pm: Edit

A crippled even ComPot ship costs .25 EP per defensive compot to repair. i.e. each point of damage costs the enemy .25 EP. This goes down to .2 EP per point of damage for a 5 point frigate (best case for repair).

Ignoring salvage (which makes directing less efficient):

Direct Target	damage points	cost	ratio
4 point FF	12	2.5	0.2083
5 point FF	16	3	0.1875
6 point DW	18	4	0.2222
7 point CW	22	5	0.2273
9 point CC	28	9	0.3214

If we don't ignore salvage then directing that 5 point Fed or Klingon frigate gives a net cost of 2.25 EP, and absorbs 16 damage for .1406 EP per point. Vastly worse than letting the damage fall.

This all assumes that the opponent isn't overbuilding. But most empires can find a use for their money other than overbuilding.

So, no, directing is not necessarily more expensive than letting it fall. You pick whether to direct based on the ability to target expensive specialty ships (like the CC in the table above) or your opponent's ability to absorb all the damage on fighters or your maulers making directing cheaper.

For the alliance, in a major assault where the coalition is going to run out of fighters and have to cripple a bunch of hard to repair even ComPot ships, letting it fall is fine unless there's something nice and expensive that you can kill.

Edited to add: Directing is a bad idea unless you have a reason to direct, there are lots of good reasons to direct (kill something expensive, drive a CVA off the line, take out fixed defenses, it's a one round pin battle and your opponent has plenty of fighters, your opponent is cash rich and will need to overbuild to replace the lost hull, you have a mauler on the line). But the default is "let it fall", you direct because you have a reason to direct.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, June 22, 2020 - 12:52 pm: Edit

“Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.” - J.L.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 22, 2020 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Let's move this totally reasonable, yet abstract analysis discussion to the general discussion forum!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, June 22, 2020 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Joking aside, I think the default is that THERE IS NO DEFAULT.

Seriously consider whether you should or should not use directed damage every time you have the opportunity and don't just go with 'always do' or 'always don't'. Consider the tactical situation vs. the grand strategic situation.

Seriously.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 22, 2020 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Let's move this totally reasonable, yet abstract analysis discussion to the general discussion forum!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 08:21 am: Edit

CT8

The turn is over!

In Hydran space, the Coalition have mostly pulled back to their staging ground in 0815 where there are about 120 ships (including 2 small Lyran reserves of about 4 ships each) and then 39 cripples sitting with 6FRDs. The Lyrans also have 50+ ships at SB 0411. The Coalition hold planets 0416, 0519, and 0718 with a few ships each.

In Kzinti space, most of the Coalition is on SB 1403 where there are about 100 ships, 28 cripples, and a lot of fighters. There are 2 small reserves that are made entirely of Aux CVs here as well. The Coalition are also holding most of Kzinti space other than planet 1001 and the northern most fringe of provinces. There is a 5 ship Klingon reserve at BATS 0908.

In Fed space, the Klingons have again largely pulled back inside Klingon space, leaving a small force to keep supply open to the Orion enclave but otherwise defending Klingon border stations. There are a couple solid Klingon reserves inside Klingon space.

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD3CT8end.html

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 09:18 am: Edit

Which Fed SB's have died?

(Can't look under the counters )

Why have the Cowardly Coalition also fled from Federation Space?

Hardly going to capture Sol by going backwards

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 10:09 am: Edit

7th Fleet SB is dead. The other two are alive.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 10:10 am: Edit

Kzinti Econ:

Command Points: 0+1=1 (AT8, 1 used CT8)

Exploration: (3) 85+5=90 (+4)

Treasury: 21.25 (CT8)

On Map Provinces (24): 4
Off Map Provinces (6): 14
Captured Provinces: 0
On Map Planets: (52): 15
Off Map Planets: (11): 11
Captured Planets: 0

Total EP: 65.25

Construction T8:
-20 4CM
-3 FFK
-12.5 5FF (1 off map)
-2.5 FF (DN)
-2.5 FF (BC)
-5 Command Point

Construction Total: 45.5

Conversions:
-5 BC>CV (1401, 6FFF)

Conversion Total: 5

Repairs:
-9.5 (BC, 3MEC, 2FKE, FFK 1401)
-2 (FH, SF off map)

Repair Total: 11.5

Adopt Homeless Ships: 1 (2 lines)

Total Spent: 63

Treasury: 2.25

FFF Left: 6

DBB:

Salvage:

————————————————————

Hydran Econ:

Command Points: 0+1=1 (1 used CT8)

Exploration: (5) 89+15=104 (+5, next 130)

Treasury: 13.925 (CT8)

On Map Provinces (22): 6
Off Map Provinces (4): 14
Captured Provinces: 1
On Map Planets: (35): 12
Off Map Planets: (13): 13
Captured Planets: 0
Guild Treasury: 5 (5/30)

Total EP: 64.925

Construction T8
-8 NSC (1.5 FFF, RN)
-10 2HR (3FFF)
-5 HR (1.5FFF; TR)
-7.5 3CU
-7.5 3HN (1 0215)
-2.5 CU (PAL)
-0 COG (5FFF)
-0 PGV
-5 Command Point

Construction Total: 45.5

Conversions:
-3+1 KN>LNH (1FFF, 0215)

Conversion Total: 4

Repairs:
-3.5 (TR, 2HN off map)

Repair Total: 3.5

Total Spent: 53

Treasury: 11.925 (AT8)

FFF Left: 0

Salvage:

—————————————————

Federation Econ:

Command Points: 0+1=1

Exploration: (8): 33+31=64 (+3)

Treasury: 42.2 (CT8)

On Map Provinces (92): 87
Off Map Provinces (6): 12
Captured Provinces: 0: 0.6
On Map Planets: (123): 113
Captured Planets: 0

Total EP: 254.8

Construction T8:
-18 CVA (15 FFF)
-6 TG (CA)
-15 3NCL
-6 2FF (2204, 2211)
-4 FFS
-9 3FF (ECL, 2DE)
-0 SWAC
-28 4PDU (Earth, 16)
-5 CP

Construction Total: 91

Activations T7:
-1 CA
-1 DD
-3 3CL
-3 3FF

Activation Total: 8

Conversions:
-15 MB>BATS (Earth)
-3 DD>DE, 2CL>ECL (2908)
-3+12 CA>CVS, CL>CLE (2908)
-2 DN>DN+ (2204)
-3 DN>DN+, DD>DE (2211)
-3 DN>DN+, DD>DE (3611)


Conversion Total: 41

Repairs:

Repair Total:

Total Spent: 140

Treasury: 114.8

FFF Left: 0

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 09:38 am: Edit

AT8

Raids happened and moves are underway.

In the Raid phase, the Alliance attempted to raid 7 Coalition provinces, but got scared off in 2 of them, so successfully raided 3 Lyran and 2 Klingon provinces.

In Hydran space, the Hydrans have pinned all the ships at SB 0411 (about 50 SEQ on a side), are hitting captured planets 0416, 0519, and 0718 with forces big enough to dissuade the Coalition reserves, and are currently trying to figure out if they should send 7 ships (TR, 6FF) on the edge of Lyran space on a suicide run at the undefended Lyran capital for a propaganda victory of possibly devastating a minor planet. But given that they can pin one of the FFs out of the hex with SB fighters, fight an approach with 18IFF (which'll cripple another FF or two), I'd be hard pressed to even be able to devastate 1 minor planet, and then any survivors would be stranded out of supply. So probably not. But it's nice to dream!

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti sent 125 SEQ to Lyran SB 1403, pinning everything there, and then started rounding up all the various province raiders and planetary garrison forces. This was possible due to the fact that 30 of the ships sitting on the SB are crippled. It is unclear if the Kzinti plan on actually trying to destroy the SB or not yet.

On the Fed front, the Feds have sent some ships into the NE edge of Kzinti space, helping liberate a planet and provinces, and have started moving ships to targets in the middle west edge of Klingon space (BATS 1809 and 1811), but the Klingons have a lot of ships in that area, so it is unlikely that the Feds will be killing much.

Plenty of ships left to go!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 12:32 pm: Edit

AT8

Moves are done, and waiting for reserves to deploy!

On the Hydran front, 4 combat hexes; the traditional "Pin the Lyrans at SB 0411 and then leave after a declined approach" hex, and then three battle lines that are mugging FFs holding planets 0416, 0519, and 0718. The Coalition have two unpinned reserves in the area, but they are 8 total ships, so unlikely to move or make a difference. The Hydrans are also capturing 2 and disrupting 1 Lyran province. The Hydrans could have sent a TR and 6FFs to attack the undefended Lyran Capital, but between fighters pinning a ship out, fighting an approach, and then the PDUs, while I could have probably devastated a minor planet in the Lyran capital for style nd propaganda points, it is likely that all 7 of those ships would have been destroyed in the long run (due to being stranded out of supply, mostly crippled). So probably not worth it.

On the Kzinti front, there are 10 battle hexes. They sent a giant fleet to Lyran SB 1403 (but probably not giant enough to actually kill the SB), allowing them to round up all the other ships in Kzinti space pretty decisively. They are also attacking Klingon BATS 0906, probably mostly to pin a reserve there, but it isn't impossible that they could actually fight the BATS. There are no unpinned reserves on this front.

On the Fed front, there are 4 battle hexes (not including a couple small fights in Kzinti space where they are helping out). BATS 1809 and 1811 are under attack by forces that may or may not be able to actually kill the BATS (they probably could if pressed to do so, but without that many carriers still, they'd probably take more damage than is reasonable). A 30 ships force is attacking planet 1611 (pinning a reserve there), but also unlikely to actually be worth trying to get the planet. There is a moderate force attacking planet 1910 which is under Klingon control, defended by a single E4. There is a moderate reserve in the area that is unpinned and it is unclear where it will go.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 02:57 am: Edit

With average dice....can the Kzinti SID the 1403 SB (and with luck then direct kill the crippled SB) and then keep 1401 against any Coalition counter attack?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 02, 2020 - 08:19 am: Edit

Maybe?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 07:45 am: Edit

AT8

Combat is well underway.

On the Hydran front, the Hydrans killed a few small ships, recaptured some planets, but didn't notice that the two small Lyran reserves had an STJ in the mix, and when combined, were a big enough force to maul something, so over planet 0416, they ended up trading a cruiser for the STJ (which is a bad trade for the Hydrans to be sure, but, well, things happen in the fog of war!). Over SB 0411, the Lyrans saluted the Hydran force as it did a drive by and then left.

On the Kzinti front, the Kzinti (and some Fed allies) have been cleaning up Kzinti space of occupation forces, liberating planets 1105, 1202, 1502, 1504, and 1802, as well as plenty of provinces (and killing scads of little ships in the process). Over SB 1403, the Kzinti offered an approach, the Coalition accepted, spent a command point, and in the 1st round of approach, the Kzinti (who had a bigger line and an EW advantage) rolled a 1 vs the Coalition's 5, so the Coalition did more damage, compromising the Kzinti's ability to get to the SB, if that is their plan.

On the Fed front, as expected, the Feds mostly fought some inconclusive approach fights over the BATS and then left; they fled planet 1611 after a declined approach, but the did totally liberate planet 1910 from a lone E4!

The Fed have the ability to get into Klingon space and hit targets currently, but don't have enough carriers/fighters yet to realistically fight over Coalition hardpoints without getting mangled. And getting mangled to kill a BATS that isn't going anywhere seems like a poor use of resources currently.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 10:20 am: Edit

Can we get a picture of the Map?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 10:25 am: Edit

I'll post a new map at the end of the turn (It's kind of a hassle); it won't look that much different than it does now :-)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 11:32 am: Edit

Lack of Fed Carriers...

…. why wasn't the FV built then?

Might not be that good....but 3 Fighters is better than none (and you have a stack of Ep's unspent!).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 11:39 am: Edit

Because Fed FVs are garbage, it's better to use the FFF for other things.

One more FV is NOT going to solve a lack of carrier problem and is just a poor use of scarce resources.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>why wasn't the FV built then?>>

The FV wasn't built 'cause it is hot garbage. The Feds don't have enough carriers *cause it is Turn 8*, not 'cause they didn't build FVs.

On T7, the Feds built 2 carriers (12 fighter factors on the map) using the 8FFF they had available (in addition to an FCR), and didn't think it was prudent to spend another 12EPs to make yet another CV on T7.

On T8, they built a CVA (using 15FFF) and a CVS at full cost. Which is about what seemed like a reasonable expenditure for carriers this turn. And heck, even if I had built *10* carriers this turn (which, to be clear, I know is illegal, but using hyperbole to make a point), it still wouldn't have changed how many carriers were available to fight the Klingons with this turn, as *they would have been in the Capital hex*.

The Feds. On T8. They just don't have the ability that many carriers in operation. 'Cause they have only had *two build phases and only had access to 22 free fighter factors to use*.

That's the issue. Not "I neglected to build an FV" (which wouldn't have helped in any case).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Peter, The Klingon Border SB can convert a CA to a CVS and a CL or DD to a ECL or DE. A FFE can also be built there. Getting you a Carrier much closer to the front where you need it.

FV groups are very helpful as you can hide your FCRs in them and then have 9 fighter factors to replenish the heavier carriers.

If you are playing with Advanced OPs then I hope you "activated" the CLVs on turn 7 as well to give you more fighters.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Peter

Low compot…. easyish to kill … what to like about it?

I agree the FV is garbage - but it's better than nothing

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 04:24 pm: Edit

You don't need to hide FCRs in Peter's game, pretty sure. It's better NOT to put them in a carrier group to start as that leaves them available as an emergency escort later.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, July 04, 2020 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Just one more thing it seems about F&E. So many choices. What will work best? Buy this buy that? Every one has there own idea about what is best.. That means You must know who you are playing and counter what they do?