Question Homeless Support (410.51)

Sorry to chase - can I have a formal ruling on this?

Same question re-worded to hopefully make it easier.

Is it legal for a Homeless supplied Carrier to transfer during the transfer phase of combat it's surviving fighters to an Out of Supplier Carrier which is short on fighters - and for the Homeless Supplied Carrier to receive replacements at the end (or start of their turn) of a player turn?


As the Fighters have been voluntarily transferred and not lost , the answer I believe is no.

Example - Kzinti CVA transfers 9 surviving fighters to 3 Kzinti CVE's which have no fighters left .

CVA then receives 12 replacement fighters.

i.e. 1 Homeless supplied fighters is replacing 4 carriers with fighters (itself and 3 others).

(Counter would be, if the CVE's are not on an allied base, they will be counted Out of supply - but if stacked with the an Allied base, there is no penalty - but they are getting free attrition units still).

Thank you

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RULE: Per (501.61):

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Quote:

Ships and bases of the same race in the same hex can transfer fighters between each other between Combat Rounds as long as the receiving unit has the capacity to hold the fighters...

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By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Monday, June 15, 2020 - 08:46 am: Edit

Apropos to Chuck's request, I have a bit more input. 411.74 "Extra Cost" reads: The owning empire of an expeditionary fleet must pay 0.25 EP per unit (ship/FRD/Base) per turn due to the higher transport cost of supporting the unit. The transportation surcharge is in addition to normal support costs, including repairs, drone bombardment, replacement PFs, etc. Example: calculate the support costs of the fleet, (drone factors, repairs, etc) as if it were in home territory, then add 0.25ep per unit. A Kzinti exp. fleet with 3 DFs would pay 1.2EPs for each volley of drones and then pay 0.75EPs for each ship (no matter how many volleys launched.)"

It makes sense that DBB, fighter and PF replacement are afforded only to expeditionary fleet ships that have paid the "transport surcharge," as that per 411.71 connects the ships to the main grid through allied supply points. To be clear, supply for expeditionary ships arrives via the transport surcharge from the main grid; the base itself is not providing supply directly. It would follow that, like any stranded base (i.e. in a partial grid), an expeditionary base would have to pay separately for any supply it provides to other ships.

So what is the benefit of paying the transport surcharge for the base itself?  Consider the 3rd example given re supplies provided by the transport surcharge: repair. FRDs are specifically listed as a unit that can be included in an expeditionary fleet. An FRD alone cannot draw supplies from a partial grid, so even if it remains in supply as an expeditionary unit, it has no EPs to spend. But the language in 411.74 suggests that an expeditionary FRD pays for those repairs from the main grid using the expeditionary transport surcharge to trace through allied bases.

If so, then naturally the same would be true for an expeditionary base. The question is, how are other base functions paid for? The logical deduction of 411.74 is that repairs are paid for from the main grid as an expeditionary unit. But other functions? The inclusive "etc" suggests there are other functions, but are not defined in the rule. Can the exp base buy supply for non-expeditionary ships/replacement fighters/PFs as can a base in a partial grid? Or not: if it is drawing supply from the main grid does it not count as being in a partial grid anymore (and what happens to the EPs from a partial grid?)

Can a base be simultaneously part of the main grid in some ways and part of a partial grid in others? Expeditionary bases must exist in some kind if hybrid supply grid; repair is paid from the main grid, but that connection is not enough to supply other ships like a base actually in the main grid. Interaction with the partial supply grid rules is perhaps the point that needs further clarification, so as to be able to define what happens in this scenario.
Thank you

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 05:29 pm: Edit

From the Survey Rules (and reminded by "the SR needs to be marked obsolete" in the Hydran OOB thread).

I find it difficult that the Hydrans would obsolete the SR before having another design in service. I could understand the Fed CL hull since they did have a replacement in 168.

The coalition empires have designs as old (or older) that are still in service during this time (and despite new designs the old ones never actually do go out of service during the almost 20 years of the GW).

I would like to appeal this rule and ask to set the Hydran SR in service date (for obsolescence) to be when the new design is available down the road.

As an alternate appeal if the above cannot be done. please set obsolescence dates for the Rom War Eagle class SR and D6E. (The Kzinti, Lyran and Gorn SR designs should be considred also, maybe the ISC.)

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 06:24 pm: Edit

And the fact the DD is on the construction schedule until the end of the war.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Obsolete types have to be matched alliance/coalition.

D6E is not an obsolete type. D6s were built in very late periods. So were War Eagles, so they aren't obsolete either.

By Ryan Opel (Feast) on Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 10:15 pm: Edit

(542.16) Obsolete types: Further production of obsolete types of survey ships is prohibted unless all players agree to allow such production. This includes the Federation CLS and its variants, and the Hydran SR and its variants.

FEAST

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Ryan: I understand that if the players agree then these ships can be built. Its not really fun to begin the balance factor negotiations for a ship that you will definitely build but only once or twice.

All: The Hydran DD (like the D6 and WE) as Ryan eluded to, is also not an obsolete base hull and is on the schedule in both the Old colonies and regular capital production schedule into the 180s.

I am not really asking that the DD based-SR stay active all the way out until then but could it at least still be a legal and useful build for them until they have a replacement class?
This would be until the end of T5 or 170F
The PIC comes out in 171S and the PGR in 172S.

The Fed CL hull does appear on the schedule until 174 (replaced in 175) in the form of an ECL. Again the Feds have a replacement SR class ship when this ship is deemed no longer useful so I am good here.

I am not sure what coalition ships are or should be listed obsolete or if a balance factor would need to be added. (I am not sure that one necessarily does. Mainly because in this situation SR's are heavily regulated by production rules and the Hydrans are strapped for cash so would have to make decisions). ADB did add and then obsolete the E3 (for naval duty), as a nice flavor to the 4PW and opening GW scenario. What ships should/could be considered?

As an aside the SRG/SRV classes never appear in the GW game if they begin at this status.

I tried to keep this surrounding my original question/appeal (for the Q&A thread) but may have wandered 'off path' enough where maybe responses should go into the discussion thread, if so I am sorry.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, June 19, 2020 - 08:44 am: Edit

Idiot question, when is the 13 EP the Klingons receive from the Romulans for the C9/KC9 (704.2) sale spendable, Turn 6 production, Turn 6 post-combat, or Turn 7 Production??

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 10:40 am: Edit

Is the undefined trade income of the LDR (548.11) halved in peacetime?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, June 26, 2020 - 06:16 pm: Edit

RE: don't think so as it's like DIP or CC income, map income (planets, provinces, colonies) is subject to exhaustion ... IIRC ...

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 11:56 am: Edit

(503.331) leaves me with a host of questions:

1) Suppose the Tholians designate a 12-ship "detached fleet" on their turn. It goes somewhere, completes a mission, then part or all of it returns home. During their next econ phase, can they replace the portion that returned home with different ships? Or do they have to continue to use the same ships?

2) The Tholians designate a 12-ship "detached fleet" on their turn. They go and fight a battle in which two are killed. Could they send two more during their reaction or reserve movement?

3) In either of the above cases, suppose the Tholians attempt to send more ships by operational or reaction movement, but they are pinned before reaching the rest of their fleet. The rules state that they "must enter a hex containing a unit of the detached fleet during the same movement phase . . ." Now what?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Q(411.31 and 411.32):

Does a base (such as Kzinti battle station 1004 in this case) open supply through hexes adjacent to it if there are also enemy ships (Klingon in this case) in its hex. There are otherwise no other units affecting the opening or closing of supply in hexes adjacent to the BATS.

My opponent says it does based on the second to last sentence of:

(411.32) BASES: An enemy base with six fighter factors or six PFs also counts as a ship for purposes of blocking the Supply Route. A friendly base in the Supply Route hex will negate the effects of enemy ships in an adjacent hex, but a friendly base with fighters or PFs in an adjacent hex will not offset the effects of enemy ships in another adjacent hex. (In other words, a base with the required number of fighters/PFs can block supply but cannot unblock supply through an adjacent hex.)


I say it does not based on the last sentence of the above rule and based on the following (note particularly the last sentence):

(411.31) SHIPS: The Supply Route cannot pass through a hex adjacent to enemy ships unless the Supply Route hex contains friendly units or is adjacent to friendly ships (including the ships being supplied). Note the distinct use of the terms “ships” and “units”. .

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 05:55 pm: Edit

RBE:
I’m not following...

Can you post a specific example?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 28, 2020 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Sure.

There is a Kzinti BATS in 1004, it would be in supply if not blocked by the Klingons ships (irrelevant what) also in 1004.

There are no other units (for this example, to keep it simple) within two hexes of 1004.

Do the Klingon ships in 1004 prevent supply from passing through the hexes adjacent to 1004?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 02:04 am: Edit

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Quote:

(411.2) RESTRICTIONS: Supply Routes cannot pass through a hex containing enemy units unless that hex also contains friendly units. This applies only during combat (301.2) or one special case in a Free Campaign (652.13).

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By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, June 29, 2020 - 08:37 am: Edit

That does not answer the question, which I can distill a bit more.

Does Kzinti supply pass through hex 1003 if 1004 is a Kzinti BATS and also contains a Klingon ship?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 09:35 am: Edit

The Federation SIT lists rule (549.121). I've looked through all my references but I don't see a section 549, where is it located?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Ken,

(549) is in Fighter Ops 2016

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Q(310.36) (SSC) This rule says single sided units are eliminated by a casualty (such as PDUs and PGBs). Does this include a colony or a colony under construction? I am trying to determine how colonies are affected by Small Scale Combat.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 08:44 pm: Edit

(446.42) Involuntary: A colony cannot be given up as voluntary damage unless the colony is the only "unit" remaining in the hex.

(310.113) All PDUs and PGBs‡ assigned to a planet are counted as one unit under (310.1); their assigned attrition units are counted under (310.112). Planets and residual defense factors (508.16) are not counted in unit or defense factor calculations. However, once the Small-Scale Combat steps are complete, the last player remaining may choose to devastate and/or capture (or liberate) any planets there and could then retreat via (302.7).

FEDS: A C-Base is counted like a glorified PDU. During construction/upgrade one must destroy the building unit.

(446.31) Planet: A colony planet is a planet for purposes of the rules, but cannot serve as a supply, retrograde, or strategic movement point.

(446.12) Construction: The developing race must send
to the hex (by operational movement) a tug (or two
LTTs) or a convoy (civilian or military but not
commercial), which must remain in that hex for three
consecutive turns. If the tug/convoy leaves the hex or is
destroyed, development is canceled and all EPs spent
for it are lost.

(446.53) Destruction: If destroyed by eight damage
points (same as devastation) the colony base and the
colony itself (which are one and the same) would be
removed. The colony base cannot be attacked until its
defense battalions (if any) have been destroyed, but all
could be attacked and destroyed as a single target.
There is no procedure to destroy your own colonies.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Note that this question is not about a colony base, just the initial colony itself and how (or if) you can destroy it with SSC.

I do not see an answer to this in your post unless you mean that to destroy a colony with SSC the only way is to capture the hex and to destroy it under construction would be the same. I think.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, July 01, 2020 - 09:15 pm: Edit

A colony is a planet so "once the Small-Scale Combat steps are complete, the last player remaining may choose to devastate and/or capture (or liberate) any planets there and could then retreat via (302.7)." A colony can also be destroyed by two successful "G" attacks.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 06, 2020 - 09:25 am: Edit

Q(653.0) D. Early Warning (+10): Move the entire old Colonies squadron to the capital before the game begins.

A couple of questions:

1: Is the Old Colonies squadron activated by this? Presumably yes, for 10 balance points it would be really expensive otherwise.

2: Does this include all four PGS? Historically one was not activated until late in the war (being converted at that point to a PFT).

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 07, 2020 - 05:49 am: Edit

D. Early Warning (+10): Move the entire old Colonies squadron to the capital before the game begins.

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(525.318) Hydran Pegasus: The Pegasus-class ships are built in a special shipyard owned by the guilds.

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(317.4) ADDITIONAL SCOUTS
Several additional scout units are provided in Advanced Operations. Some notes are given here regarding these. Hydran Pegasus: These scouts were used for traffic and customs control and technically belonged to the Hydran police. They were large, lightly armed, and not intended for combat. When the General War began, the Hydrans found themselves at a serious EW disadvantage and pressed these ships into combat service until better scouts could become available. The last of these ships (long since sent back to "civilian" duties) were later converted into some of the first Hydran PFTs. The Hydrans have four of these ships in the off-map area, three of which can be brought onto the map (one per turn) starting with Turn #1 or any later turn at the Hydran player's option. The fourth PGS cannot be brought onto the map until it is converted into a PFT. The fourth PGS is not “inactive” so it cannot come onto the board if the Hydran capital is devastated. The Hydrans can build more PGS ships at their option, see (709.1).

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By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, July 17, 2020 - 12:30 pm: Edit

According to (501.33), Tholian ships, other than the detached fleet, can't move more than two hexes away from Tholian space.

But what about their fighters?

Evidence that they can move beyond two hexes can be found in a ruling related to Tholian raids, saying that E&S teams can move beyond two hexes as they are not ships. Fighters aren't ships either.

But frozen fleet rules were updated to prevent their fighters, or even the fighters on their bases, from reacting outside of the frozen fleet's zone. So there is some precedent for going the other way, too.